Unfair Rules

[Pinelife]

Hey All
I am new to the list, just found it today. And I thought I was ate up with Pinewood...you guys are great. I thought I was alone out there, always excited by the race and loving the competition. Well I got a problem. You can't fix it but at least I can cry on your shoulders. These are the new rules they put out this year for District. It's because our Pack swept District last year and has won 1st at Districts 4 out of the past five years. My son was a Tiger last year and won third so now he can't race till he is a second year Webelo. (My older son won the past 2 years) We still plan to race but it's almost like what's the point.

18. Only one Scout from each Pack may earn a First, Second or Third Place Award, no matter the actual placing.

19. If a Scout places First, Second or Third in this year’s race and has placed within the top three places within the past three years in the District Pinewood Derby he will be disqualified this year from being awarded First, Second or Third place. If this situation arises, the Scout will be recognized as a professional pinewood derby racer only.

20. If a Scout places within the top three, he will not be considered for any other awards.

Depressed in Ohio

[doct1010]

BOGUS!!

It seems this would deminish the spirit of past winners "to do your best". I fail to see the benefit other than spreading out awards amongst the packs. An egalitarian gesture, however one that runs counter to the spirit of pinewood. imo

[Stan Pope]

Truly rotten!

It is just the opposite of a rule I've been considering to propose. Our district participants qualify by placing high in the pack races. This can make it hard on the members of packs with especially good racers.

Under consideration:
"Racing trophy winners (top 5 in each grade except Webelos 2) from last year's district race are automatically qualified to race in this year's race. They do not count against their pack's racer quota."

Thoughts? Is the record keeping an issue?

[scoutfrog]

I too would have to scream FOUL!!! And I like the thought of the pre-qualifing past winners.

But to solve the problem of disallowing past winners, I like the idea of I.R.O.C. which is what i thought the district race was for, the pack winners to compete against each other!

The track being used for district can't be the only one in town. You might want to approch your pack about about having your own "RACE OF CHAMPIONS" same day as the district race. Heavily promote it and openly invite ALL WINNERS, FROM ALL PACKS to come and race. after all if you hold a race and the best racers are not there than is the winner really the best?

I say inbrace their restrictions and run with them. who knows, in a year or two they may have to call off the district race due to lack of racers.

[doct1010]

The track being used for district can't be the only one in town. You might want to approch your pack about about having your own "RACE OF CHAMPIONS" same day as the district race. Heavily promote it and openly invite ALL WINNERS, FROM ALL PACKS to come and race. after all if you hold a race and the best racers are not there than is the winner really the best?

I say inbrace their restrictions and run with them. who knows, in a year or two they may have to call off the district race due to lack of racers.

Now thats a GREAT idea!

[ExtremePWD]

Truly rotten!

Under consideration:
"Racing trophy winners (top 5 in each grade except Webelos 2) from last year's district race are automatically qualified to race in this year's race. They do not count against their pack's racer quota."

Thoughts? Is the record keeping an issue?

I am the PWD chair at our pack and I would not have a problem with the record keeping issue. I would support automatic qualifying for top racers. Besides recognizing and rewarding the higher level of competition at some packs, it also covers the case where a perennial top district finisher had a pack DNF due to other cars crashing into his, poorly designed track stops causing car damage and other various accidents beyond the scout's control. This situation has occurred at our pack and the scout did not qualify for district.

[Stephen's Dad]

Making the strong weak does nothing to help the weak get stronger. Quite the opposite; it really gives the weak a reason to stay that way. This is the most hideous thing I've ever read here.

I think that someone on the District rules Committee had a taste of sour grapes when their own child failed to finish strong.

This is a very un-Scouting set of rules.

[Cory]

My son was a Tiger last year and won third so now he can't race till he is a second year Webelo. (My older son won the past 2 years) We still plan to race but it's almost like what's the point.

Could you clarify the first bolded text above?

Did you mean he can't race or he can't win trophies?

My other question is why does your Pack do so much better than the other Packs?

Just trying to understand the other side's point of view, even though I don't necessarily agree with it.

Thanks,
C.

[Pinelife]

My son was a Tiger last year and won third so now he can't race till he is a second year Webelo. (My older son won the past 2 years) We still plan to race but it's almost like what's the point.


Could you clarify the first bolded text above?


Did you mean he can't race or he can't win trophies?

My other question is why does your Pack do so much better than the other Packs?

Sorry I got too excited, I meant he could not compete for a trophy. (or to have his name placed on the plaque at our Scout store). As far as why our Pack does so much better..well it all started about six years ago when one of the cubs cars had a dragging tailpipe and the Cubmaster with the advise of the CC told the dad he could not remove or fix it. His sons car did not place and he made a point to learn the art of "Pinewood Racing". Then he started holding clinics to share his knowledge and our Pack has dominated District ever since (except one year). His son has since moved on to Boy Scouts but the legacy of our Pack has made it's mark.

Now just as a side note, the rules are quite restricting and seem to grow larger every year...no extended wheelbase (new this year), wheels flat and no smaller than a certain diameter all materials must be from the kit, only powder graphite plus the rules included in the kit. But I know that we are no experts because a few years we raced at the state fair and got blown away so it's not like we can't be challenged.

[Cory]

I meant he could not compete for a trophy.

Interesting.

Do you race by Rank, or is it everybody against everybody? Either way, the rules have weird implications when you think a few years down the road.

I also noted the careful use of the words place and award -- it appears to me that they do not mean the same thing. One fairly likely scenario is that a boy from your Pack could place in the top three for five consecutive years and never win a trophy. Ouch!

Finally, it seems like these rules are addressing the symptom and not the problem. Have you offered to help the other Packs get better?

[Pinelife]

It is all ranks grouped together for the District Race. I have not thought about giving race tips to other packs, it has been quite a rivalry between my two kids and his (the one who started the clinics in our pack) two kids. After the second year I figured he wasn't actually giving up all the race tips so I started researching myself and my oldest son has won the past two years.

[Stan Pope]

Curious that a Scout should not be allowed to improve his results ... 3rd once so he can't try for 1st or 2nd place recognition. Strange! (I know what "bath water" they are trying to discard, but the baby seems to be going out with it.)

By comparison, no pack can sweep the trophies in our District Derby. They can come close, though. The reason is that each pack can send 4 racers in a category, and we award 5 trophies per category. 20 trophies (1st thru 5th) to 20 different boys (6% of the participants).

On the topic of alternative events... some important warnings:
1. It must not appear to be in competition with the "official BSA event."
2. It must not be associated with any Cub Scout unit.
Violation of these creates "ex-Scouters" (certified letters with membership termination, refunding of registration, etc.) Don't go there ... it hurts everyone.

So, participation in such an event should be open to any youth serving organization. Kit standards should be based on commonly available kits. Rules should distinguish by age group or school grade, and not by designations related to the organizations (Wolf, Bear, etc.)

You might get around the "kit differences" by competing within "classifications" associated to the various kit manufacturers... RA, PinCar, BSA, etc., but you must be sure that the BSA kit classification doesn't devolve into a competing "District PWD."

[2kids10horses]

Cub Scouts is a volunteer organization. It sounds like you need to get involved! That's the only way to get rules that you disagree with changed.

The rules you cite do seem to violate the principle of "Do your best".

Now, here's a new idea that you might propose:

Create a new category of "Professional Pinewood Derby Racers". Membership is admitted to those who finished 1st, 2nd, or 3rd this year in District or last year in District. And then, have a race of the "Professionals"!!!

Artificially maniplating the rules to spread the trophies around is a poor way to promote competition. Our first two years in Cub Scouts, there were two brothers who dominated our Pack race. The youngest was a Tiger, and he not only won Pack, he was first in District for Tigers.

Now, the kids who are the fastest in Tigers will "Generally" have an older brother! I'm sure there's the exception, but I feel safe when I say that learning the skills of PWD is a process that takes a couple of years. (Unless someone stumbles onto this site their first year!).

Anyway, everyone thought those two brothers were undefeatable. And they were. Until my son beat them both last year!

So, now, we're the "unbeatable" PWD makers in our Pack. At one of our Pack meetings (I'm the CubMaster) I showed everyone our 3rd in District car for last year, and told everyone what made it fast.

It just so happened, that we made a faster one this year!

I have no idea how we'll do at District this Saturday, but it would be rotten if we were inelligible to compete!

This, is as bad as someone racing an e-bay car as their own work!

2kids10horses

[Stephen's Dad]

This is precisely why I am in support of a standard set of "National Rules".

Getting involved at the Pack level is definately step 1. That's what got me where I am today. Now I am a District Committee person as well as Cubmaster. Not that this was ever my goal really. It's just that I can't stand when "stuff for the boys" doesn't happen or isn't done well.

[VENARI]

Really, really sad man. Penalizing a child for doing well. I don't do much with BSA. Mainly with AWANA. But once upon a time many moons ago I had the pleasure of being a scout myself. I loved to compete in the pinewood races back then. Never did well but still ejoyed it alot. Watching the other scouts and friends race was great. It was the spirit of the competition which drove you to do better next year. Why would you want to LOWER the bar for the other scouts. Makes no sense.