Unfair Rules
Re: Unfair Rules
I'd be having a talk with your District Exec about this. If that is the source of the problem, I'd next be filing a complaint at Council regarding the absurd nature of these rules. To arbitrarily eliminate boys from participation simply because they have done well in one year is absolutely contrary to the spirit of PWD. Sounds to me like you've got some District leaders with sour grapes.
I'd be in your boat if we had those rules here. Last year my son placed third in the Bear category at District. This year he placed second (by .0003 seconds) in the Webs I category and then took fourth overall in the finals, avenging his loss in the rank race. If I understand the rules you've cited, we wouldn't have been able to even participate this year. That truly sucks!!!
I'd be in your boat if we had those rules here. Last year my son placed third in the Bear category at District. This year he placed second (by .0003 seconds) in the Webs I category and then took fourth overall in the finals, avenging his loss in the rank race. If I understand the rules you've cited, we wouldn't have been able to even participate this year. That truly sucks!!!
Re: Unfair Rules
r718, there are no restrictions on participation. There are restrictions on receiving awards.ronin718 wrote:If I understand the rules you've cited, we wouldn't have been able to even participate this year. That truly sucks!!!
I read through it about 4 or 5 times before I kinda thought I knew what they meant, and even then I still wasn't sure so I asked for a clarification.
C.
Re: Unfair Rules
BOY, I THOUGHT JERZEY WAS GETTING BAD. WHEN I RETIRE I'M NOT MOVING TO OHIO.
Speed isn't the only thing , its Everything......
Re: Unfair Rules
I've got something to add About unfair rules. Our pack derby was sunday 12th and my son won our pack and get the chance to race at the district on april 1st. I just got a copy of the district rules today, and boy are they unfair. This is the first district race in a very long time so i think they made it up as they went without much thought.
The first ground rule reads,
" The race is open to a maximum of six entries per pack. Three must be Cub Scouts (tiger thru bear) and three must be Webelos. " and you cant substitute one for the other.
This rule is not an issue with my son he won and qualified(he is a bear). 2nd &3rd places were taken by wolves. that is our three Cub entries, As for the webelos the top two entries to district finished 4th or worst (they only announced 1,2,3 places) and the third did not even make the pack run-off, yet he get an entrie into district because he was the #3 webelos! What about the other racers from our run-off. Tigers might have finished 4 & 5 but don't get to go, but three webelos get to go no matter where they finished. Seams to me that some cubs at being punished for finishing just "O.K." and the webelos are being rewarded for finishing poorly. I guess the only way to get to go to district is to run great or just sit around until you become a webelo and then get the "give-me " enrty.
The Third rule reads,
"The race will be a timed event. The competition time will be the sum of the times from 1 race on each of the 4 lanes. There will be no classifications according to age other then Cub Scouts ( tiger thru webelos."
I have have always heard that 2-3 cubs from each rank (tiger thru webelos) advanced to district and you races for a winner in each rank and over all winner for district. the was they are doing it everyone is throwen together in one group. I guess they can only afford to buy three awards for all of those scouts.
The first ground rule reads,
" The race is open to a maximum of six entries per pack. Three must be Cub Scouts (tiger thru bear) and three must be Webelos. " and you cant substitute one for the other.
This rule is not an issue with my son he won and qualified(he is a bear). 2nd &3rd places were taken by wolves. that is our three Cub entries, As for the webelos the top two entries to district finished 4th or worst (they only announced 1,2,3 places) and the third did not even make the pack run-off, yet he get an entrie into district because he was the #3 webelos! What about the other racers from our run-off. Tigers might have finished 4 & 5 but don't get to go, but three webelos get to go no matter where they finished. Seams to me that some cubs at being punished for finishing just "O.K." and the webelos are being rewarded for finishing poorly. I guess the only way to get to go to district is to run great or just sit around until you become a webelo and then get the "give-me " enrty.
The Third rule reads,
"The race will be a timed event. The competition time will be the sum of the times from 1 race on each of the 4 lanes. There will be no classifications according to age other then Cub Scouts ( tiger thru webelos."
I have have always heard that 2-3 cubs from each rank (tiger thru webelos) advanced to district and you races for a winner in each rank and over all winner for district. the was they are doing it everyone is throwen together in one group. I guess they can only afford to buy three awards for all of those scouts.
Re: Unfair Rules
Follow-up on our district race on April 1st.
The copy of the rules i got were dates Mar 13th, the day after our pack derby. Somewhere between then and the 27th of mar.the rules were changed as follows:
1." race is open to a maximum of nine entries per pack( there are 25 packs in the district or 225 possible enries) 3 tigers,there cubs(wolvesor bears) and 3 webelos."
3. "cars will be raced according to age with the top three advancing to the finals"
All of that being said, two days before the derby( mar 30th) I got an e-mail from the pack that had been fowarded from district that the district derby was now open to all scouts that wished to race not just the top three in each rack. All "open entries" would be run together with the top three advancing to the district finals. This seemed strange to open it up so close to the actual derby. The day of the derby i understood the reason for the "open class", of the 225 possible pack qualifiers 30 came to the district race. Of all the 100's of other cub scouts that could have ran in the open class, 1 showed up to run!!! instead of running in a class solo he was entered with his rank.
I don't hold the district responcable(there was only three people who orginised the whole derby) for the low turnout, some packs held their derbys as early as the first week in jan. And i talked to a lot of people that said they just forgot because it had been so long between events. Most never got the e-mail about the open class that was to be held, that was a last minute call and could have been made sooner.
I signed up to be on the district derby committee for next year, and one think i already suggested is sending invitations to each pack to be handed out to pack winners. They could then be returned to district, a database made and all qualifiers notified when it was time to race at district.
But on a high note, my finished 6th out of 13 in his class. We were suprized by the track, the starting gate was a foot lower then the pack track and it was 6 feet longer too. But i have a good working knowlodge of it for next year, I ask if they needed any help running things and was ask to operate the starting gate. I was spring loaded shut with a release lever(kind of "dad proof").
I guess my final statement on "unfair rules" is: "If you are not happy with the way things are sat-up or run, get involved and make a difference!"[/quote]
The copy of the rules i got were dates Mar 13th, the day after our pack derby. Somewhere between then and the 27th of mar.the rules were changed as follows:
1." race is open to a maximum of nine entries per pack( there are 25 packs in the district or 225 possible enries) 3 tigers,there cubs(wolvesor bears) and 3 webelos."
3. "cars will be raced according to age with the top three advancing to the finals"
All of that being said, two days before the derby( mar 30th) I got an e-mail from the pack that had been fowarded from district that the district derby was now open to all scouts that wished to race not just the top three in each rack. All "open entries" would be run together with the top three advancing to the district finals. This seemed strange to open it up so close to the actual derby. The day of the derby i understood the reason for the "open class", of the 225 possible pack qualifiers 30 came to the district race. Of all the 100's of other cub scouts that could have ran in the open class, 1 showed up to run!!! instead of running in a class solo he was entered with his rank.
I don't hold the district responcable(there was only three people who orginised the whole derby) for the low turnout, some packs held their derbys as early as the first week in jan. And i talked to a lot of people that said they just forgot because it had been so long between events. Most never got the e-mail about the open class that was to be held, that was a last minute call and could have been made sooner.
I signed up to be on the district derby committee for next year, and one think i already suggested is sending invitations to each pack to be handed out to pack winners. They could then be returned to district, a database made and all qualifiers notified when it was time to race at district.
But on a high note, my finished 6th out of 13 in his class. We were suprized by the track, the starting gate was a foot lower then the pack track and it was 6 feet longer too. But i have a good working knowlodge of it for next year, I ask if they needed any help running things and was ask to operate the starting gate. I was spring loaded shut with a release lever(kind of "dad proof").
I guess my final statement on "unfair rules" is: "If you are not happy with the way things are sat-up or run, get involved and make a difference!"[/quote]
- Stan Pope
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Re: Unfair Rules
There is a lot to be learned from the experience. Some general guidelines I try to follow (with varying success) are
1. Lock in the big District/Council race parameters early in the scouting year ... before Sept/Oct for Feb/Mar Races. This includes location, date, rules. (Note that the standard calendar for district and calendar events, as taught by BSA, includes 9 months of lead!)
2. Publicize! On the district/council calendar, in Cub Scout Leader Roundtable, in District/Council newsletter. Rules to pack leadership in time to be distributed with car kits.
3. Be consistent as possible from year to year. Avoid major changes unless the event is sick!
4. Have a responsive district or council "rules contact" who will give reliable information, interpret rules up front, and document those interpretations (such as on the district website.)
5. Make changes to the district/council race traditions only with great care and consideration, and then implement them with enough hoopla that folks know what is different.
1. Lock in the big District/Council race parameters early in the scouting year ... before Sept/Oct for Feb/Mar Races. This includes location, date, rules. (Note that the standard calendar for district and calendar events, as taught by BSA, includes 9 months of lead!)
2. Publicize! On the district/council calendar, in Cub Scout Leader Roundtable, in District/Council newsletter. Rules to pack leadership in time to be distributed with car kits.
3. Be consistent as possible from year to year. Avoid major changes unless the event is sick!
4. Have a responsive district or council "rules contact" who will give reliable information, interpret rules up front, and document those interpretations (such as on the district website.)
5. Make changes to the district/council race traditions only with great care and consideration, and then implement them with enough hoopla that folks know what is different.
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
- CuriousGeorge
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Re: Unfair Rules
Pinelife,
I have to agree whole heartedly with ronin on this one. I talked to a District Exec. at a roundtable about this and he said there is no way a D.E. could justify this, and if he doesn't take care of the problem, talk to council about it. It totally excludes specific scouts, even if only from the trophies, and does not afford them the same opportunities as all of the other scouts..... and that is a no-no. (I asked him if that's true, then how can Districts limit participation to the top 3 in each division of each pack and he said "because it is actualy an extention of the pack races.....like a qualifying round" and those scouts had the opportunity at the pack race to qualify for Districts.... which makes sense.... anyway) He said it sounds like they are punishing scouts for "doing their best", which is the cub scouts motto. And if it's because a certain pack sweeps the race, then the other packs leadership needs to find out what they are doing and implement it into their pack.ronin718 wrote:I'd be having a talk with your District Exec about this. If that is the source of the problem, I'd next be filing a complaint at Council regarding the absurd nature of these rules. To arbitrarily eliminate boys from participation simply because they have done well in one year is absolutely contrary to the spirit of PWD.
CuriousGeorge
"They say you learn by your mistakes, in that case I must be a genius."
"They say you learn by your mistakes, in that case I must be a genius."
Re: Unfair Rules
Man i thought my district was bad that is truley SAD
IMO there should be a standard set of rules for the derbys and they should be the one we all use.
IMO there should be a standard set of rules for the derbys and they should be the one we all use.
Re: Unfair Rules
This is one of the dumbest rules I have ever heard of! Geez.
I thought competition was a healthy thing.
It does sound like sour-grapes. Hopefully, this rule will not be around much longer.
I'm sorry your children have to suffer because of it though. It's not fair.
Derbymom
I thought competition was a healthy thing.
It does sound like sour-grapes. Hopefully, this rule will not be around much longer.
I'm sorry your children have to suffer because of it though. It's not fair.
Derbymom
- Jungle Jim
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Re: Unfair Rules
Horrible truly horrible is what that set of rules are they would make me scream rotten.
Re: Unfair Rules
I agree that the rules put a real damper on the fun of racing at the district derby. Our district race is open to everyone. There are some basic rules, but we try to keep it as simple as possible while trying to keep the playing field as level as possible.
I like the suggestion someone made about joining the district committee, specifically the committee for the pinewood derby. Some of the other suggestions I was not too keen on, like holding a separate derby on the same day/time as the district derby. That's not a solution, it's a way to divide your district and cause a lot more trouble than it's worth. Have a derby on a different day if you want. I like that idea and I think you would send a much better message to your district committee than trying to compete with a district event. Don't forget that your district is ran by volunteers. It's not ran by the DE, they are primarily there to advise your District Chairman and District Commissiner. I would approach your district committee about the rules. Explain the problem and have a couple of solutions in your pocket as well.
I like the suggestion someone made about joining the district committee, specifically the committee for the pinewood derby. Some of the other suggestions I was not too keen on, like holding a separate derby on the same day/time as the district derby. That's not a solution, it's a way to divide your district and cause a lot more trouble than it's worth. Have a derby on a different day if you want. I like that idea and I think you would send a much better message to your district committee than trying to compete with a district event. Don't forget that your district is ran by volunteers. It's not ran by the DE, they are primarily there to advise your District Chairman and District Commissiner. I would approach your district committee about the rules. Explain the problem and have a couple of solutions in your pocket as well.
Re: Unfair Rules
The satisfaction of beating a champion 1 out of 100 times is far greater then winning 99 times There wont be a true champion in your district this year. That's why we play the game.
Re: Unfair Rules
WOW! That's really a sad situation your in the middle of. If you are winning, and staying within legal "design" limits I just can't imagine a set of rules like this.
I hate to say it, but most of the time the boys understand competition better than the adults.
It just seems petty.
Young son and I are always 1 or 2 at the Pack level and get "spanked" at District and Council. But you know what? That makes us more diligent in our designs for "next" year.
I hate to say it, but most of the time the boys understand competition better than the adults.
It just seems petty.
Young son and I are always 1 or 2 at the Pack level and get "spanked" at District and Council. But you know what? That makes us more diligent in our designs for "next" year.
Part of Richmond KY Pack 376. Midland Trail District.