Graphite Pads - Pass it or Reject it?

[PWD]

Every year we have a couple of these cars. They are always DQ because we have rule of no bushings. The rule has been applied consistantly so it seems fair.

[SlartyBartFast]

If we wrestle with its interpretation, how must the parent of a brand new Wolf Cub react?

While the idea of everyone having "fun" is great, what about the lesson of sportsmanship and competition?

What is it about todays society that strives to protect kids from every possible negative experience? Perhaps you can argue about protecting a child from negative outside forces. But, in pushing the limits of the rules the child (or parent child team) has implicitly agreed to raise the bar. Once the bar is raised they bring the risks of pushing too far upon themselves. The spirit of the rules is very clear. Even the wording is quite clear.

IMO, it's a simple decision. As soon as someone tries to bend the rules by attempting to do an end-run around the wording, ignore the spirit of the rules, or argue that the dictionary definition isn't specific enough, they lose.

Besides, a brand new cub/parent should be less likely to push the boundaries of the rules.

[rdeis]

Reject.
According to http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/washer it is unquestionably a washer ("a flat thin ring").

Agree, it's a washer. If I have a "no washers" rule, it's out.

It's also a functional non-kit part, so if I have an "add no parts from outside the kit except dead weight and non-functional decorations" then it's out.

Lastly, it wouldn't be too difficult to remove at check-in time, so the car still gets to race if the check-in schedule is adequate.

[doct1010]

Haven't seen one, sounds like a violation of the no-washer rule. As an inspector last several years I often grapple with decisions such as these. I do my best to try and make it right so kid can race. Except for 1 e-bay car, in my 4 year tenure as derby chair we have not had a DQ. Alot of last minute mods, wheel changes ect., but in the end we allow cub every opportunity to correct and race within limits of time constraints.

"It's also a functional non-kit part, so if I have an "add no parts from outside the kit except dead weight and non-functional decorations" then it's out."

On our own cars we place aluminum tape for duct sealing along sides of car and around axle holes. It is intended as decoration, shines like chrome when polished. We also dab the area just outside axle hole with Krytox. While intended as decorative one could interpret this as a washer if strictly defined, although an unintended use.

Personally, if allowed a coned hub and body work very well.

[PWD]

Doct1010 how did you know it was an Ebay car?

[doct1010]

There is a thread here from last year or year before that details the saga. In short I recognized it as one of Derby Masters cars. Paint is unmistakable. Got pic off e-bay, Cub Master and I spoke to Cub and Dad in private he confirmed without incident.

[ExtremePWD]

Time permitting, I am considering building a block with multiple holes, each hole similarly sanded and prepped except for the variant above (graphite after dry vs. graphite while wet). Maybe 3 holes of each. Then using the same wheel and axle, moving from hole to hole, conduct spin time tests with the hub resting against the block. Need to think through the methodology to avoid skewing results. Any chances this has already been done?

I missed this thread back in November. Several years ago I took a long board and drilled several holes in it then treated the holes with different preparations to compare the relative friction/spin times. I just dug it out of the basement to refresh my memory on the different combinations. They were bare wood, bare wood with graphite rubbed in, painted wood (Krylon), graphite paint, epoxy only, epoxy with graphite embedded and possibly paint with graphite put in wet. The test was conducted by holding the board so that the axle was horizontal. The wheel was given a spin by hand and the board was immediately rotated 90 degrees so that the axle was pointed up and the wheel hub was rubbing against the board. The spin times were recorded for each case. I no longer have the documentation but the results showed significant differences. I believe the Krylon paint only was the slowest and several of the other methods increased the times by factors of at least 2-3x. We went on to experimenting with hard clear coats such as those used for wood floors with and without graphite added while wet.

[PWD]

I was curious how you knew it was an Ebay car because this year at the pack race there was a car that was cut like the Physics Teacher cars that are sold on Ebay.

It had the three large holes drilled into it. It was brought from a family I know pretty well and would have been extremely surprised if they purchased the car.

Turned out the car was fast but not real fast. Did not approach the subject with anyone. They probably just built the car in this manner on their own.

Because of the Physics Teacher cars sold on Ebay I don't think anyone who is knowledgeable about PWD would ever build a car with the large holes.

[tmbnorm]

We had 1 car at our district races that looked a lot like that cars that Derby Master sells on Ebay. The car finished second overall.
The car might have been built by the boy and his Dad, but it looked too perfect, if you know what I mean.

Last year, there were two cars by brothers that dominated. The wedge
cars only lost to each other. They looked like cars that are sold on Ebay.
The Ebay car even stated that it shipped at 4.95 oz and you had to add the last 0.05 oz to the car. Both cars had a small weight on top of the car right above the axle. Go figure.

[Teeeman]

OK, got a question:

No washers.


How do you enforce that?

What if the washers are glued to the body of the car as weights?


Do you call them weights then and pull rank as the "inspector general"?


We allowed any FIXED washer to be called a weight...

so, one car (my son's Den leader who discussed this with me pre-race) glued washers on his "daddy" car to serve as hard running surfaces for the wheels.


Same a graphite pads so long as they are fixed and not free to rotate.



Opinions?




-T


(we allowed it... but we would have to get VERY specific and not just whitewash a "no washer" rule to enforce properly if someone thinks there is advantage to this... I personally don't think there is... you can save the weight for the tail of the car and polish the wood to a shiny "plastic looking" finish as well as rub graphite into it... graphite pads, I dunno... I'd have to see prood they have a lower friction than our sanded and graphite impregnated wood surfaces... maybe polish the washers?... my son's Den leader didn't polish them... car was a dog but probably moreso for wheels and axles)

[BigDozer66]

I get my ideas for car building from photo's on great websites like Derby Talk and from other websites like the WIRL or even eBay.

There are people that sell blueprints or templates for car designs so copying a design isn't out of the question.

Cutting holes or drilling holes in the body to reduce weight is just one idea that some do instead of cutting from the sides (making t's or crosses) like some I have seen.

My son's car last year had a big oval cut into the body to reduce weight and I am sure his design for this year will have something similar done to it.

What does the old adage say "Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery." or something along those lines.

Lynn

[festiva91]

If you really look at those pads they are just a thin sticky piece of material impregnated with graphite. So if somebody else used a piece of double sided tape and stuck that to their car and sprinked graphite on the wheel side this would be considered a bushing or a washer? Don't think so. A washer is thin donut that would go between the wheel and the car. No reason for anybody to use it. A bushing is something that goes on the axle and is placed fixed between the axle and hollowed out wheel bore. I am guessing for a metal to metal surface. I don't know how you call a piece of material a washer or a bushing.

[Go Bubba Go]

I don't know how you call a piece of material a washer or a bushing.

You base the classification on it's application/function rather than it's composition.

[CanyonLakeDerby]

We just ran our derby last weekend and a few cars showed up with the graphite pads. I almost rejected them, because a few of them didn't stick very well and looked like a washer (that is how I caught them). I went ahead and allowed them since they are new and not specifically addressed in our rules....they ended up not being super fast. I am in charge of our local rules, so I am going to include graphite pads as an additional term under bushing, bearings, washers etc. that are not allowed. The reason for disallowing is just to stay consistent. I looked up the price on those graphite pads and they want $6.95 for a set of 4!!!!

We do allow graphite impregnating of the wood or paint since that is really a simple task any of the scouts can and should do. We haven't had anyone use graphite paint yet.

[speedbump]

hmmm...the old "if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin" saying is up for debate.

Is it cheating or just trying to interpret the rules as to gain an innovative advantage that the rules don't explicitly say you "can not" do?

Case in point, a washer is a washer is a washer.....everyone knows what a washer is right? You've used them everywhere and probably more frequently than one might think...
The gray area lies in the definition of a washer. For example, last year we decided to line the wheel hub contact area of the car body with aluminum foil (Reynold's heavy duty foil wrap) Why was this tried? DUH, to try and gain an advantage and provide a smoother surface for the wheel to contact thus reducing the friction. Was it a benefit? Dunno, the logic took over and it made sense. I grappled over the idea for several days before it was implemented because I didn't want to be "dishonest" about it and push the rules (rules that were given in the box which our District uses) But then again, I explained it to my wife that the foil wasn't "techniquely" a washer by definition. Or was it?

Anyway, we applied it and went to the race. It passed inspection and that was that....and so begins the debate