Previously Race Car is a winner again. Is that a problem?

General race coordinator discussions.
lizzygo
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Previously Race Car is a winner again. Is that a problem?

Post by lizzygo »

A car that won last year derby won our derby again yesterday. Is there a rule that disqualifies cars that have raced/won in prior years? WE did not have this in our Pack rules.
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Re: Previously Race Car is a winner again. Is that a proble

Post by gpraceman »

That is usually the rule, that is must have been built during the current school year. It should be explicitly stated in the rules; otherwise, they were in compliance.

The only exception that we have done is with the open division, where the rules are much more lenient.
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Re: Previously Race Car is a winner again. Is that a proble

Post by ranman106 »

We had the same problem a few years ago in our pack. Rules were never enforced. Once I was asked to head up our derby, rules were put in writing and a sheet was included that required the scouts and parents signature stating they had read the rules. This had to be handed in when the cars were registered.

Problem was, we had a family that handed down cars. In fact my wife was offered one if we needed it. She told them that wasn't necessary, my son and I liked to work on them together. Once they found out that rules were in place, would be inforced, and signature sheet required, that family elected not to participate that year. Too bad, it was that scouts last year and he had won at districts the year before.

Since the rules and enforcement have been in place, participation has been on the increase. So much that we added an Outlaw race this year.

Bottom line, get it in writing and enforce it.
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Go Bubba Go
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Re: Previously Race Car is a winner again. Is that a proble

Post by Go Bubba Go »

lizzygo wrote:A car that won last year derby won our derby again yesterday. Is there a rule that disqualifies cars that have raced/won in prior years? WE did not have this in our Pack rules.
Thanks.
LIZ
For BSA, the "rules in the box" for the Kit No. 17006 do not address that issue.

Our Council rules address the issue under rule 2:

Rule 2. The car run in the Council Pinewood Derby shall be the identical car run by the entrant in his own pack derby, and it must have been constructed after MM/DD/YY.

where MM/DD/YY is usually the day after the previous year's Council races.

Our Pack rules are essentially identical.

If you don't already have a similar rule in your Pack rules, I would suggest you add one in order to prevent cars from being recycled year after year.
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PWD
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Re: Previously Race Car is a winner again. Is that a proble

Post by PWD »

I can't believe this is a problem. The boys and me so enjoy building the new car each year. Seeing if we can make it go faster. We have always had a rule that the car must be new for the year and built after August 2nd that year.

Now there has been years where some of our cars have looked similar to years earlier. So I am assuming people are openly admitting to using the same car and it is just not a suspicion.
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Re: Previously Race Car is a winner again. Is that a proble

Post by tmbnorm »

I can not believe that some families handed down the cars.

What is the fun in that?

We have to have a new car at the pack and district level.
I have heard of some districts that put a small ink stamp on the bottom of the car each year.
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Re: Previously Race Car is a winner again. Is that a proble

Post by M7 Racing »

We have right in our rules that cars raced in previous years cannot be raced. I do like puting a building date out there though. Our district has no rules that require you to use the same car as in the pack race though. I think that would be hard to enforce.
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Re: Previously Race Car is a winner again. Is that a proble

Post by PWD_addict »

M7 Racing wrote:We have right in our rules that cars raced in previous years cannot be raced. I do like puting a building date out there though. Our district has no rules that require you to use the same car as in the pack race though. I think that would be hard to enforce.
I'm not sure that's a good idea anyway--especially if the District has different rules from the Packs. I think someone said in a post that it's not the car that qualifies for the District races, it's the Cub Scout that's qualified. I know that's not the case in all Districts but I like it that way.
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Re: Previously Race Car is a winner again. Is that a proble

Post by M7 Racing »

I agree....we were shocked on how different the rules were between Packs. One year we did have to build a new car because of a rule change at districts. Now as a Pack we get the district rules first and just use them as our rules.
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Re: Previously Race Car is a winner again. Is that a proble

Post by PWD »

We also don't have a rule that you have to use the same car for Pack and Districts. We have completely different tracks for the two races so it is a good thing.

I don't know why but for years I thought we did have such a rule. So we built a car where the weights could be moved. We would move them from one race to another and we felt this did not break the rule.

Last year a friend of mine was building a new car with his son for the district race. I decided to verify the rule before talking to him about it. I had kept the rules printout for the last nine years in a pile in my workshop. I was shocked when I could not find the rule anywhere. Not sure how I got that rule in my head :mrgreen:

So this year we will build a new car.
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Re: Previously Race Car is a winner again. Is that a proble

Post by chad9229 »

I love the idea of getting the parents to sign the rules. This year we had a transistion of me becoming Cubmaster and our old Cubmaster bridging up with his son. I was left in charge of the pinewood derby, but the old Cubmaster still wanted his finger in everything.

I brought up that I would like for the parents to read the rules and then sign them. He thought that was a terrible idea!! Of course, during the derby this year we had several parents bring in kit cars and were totaly suprised when we asked them to change the wheels.

I am the kind of guy that believes that the rules of the Pinewood derby is sacred and should be followed. So that means that all boys are playing equal, but I hear from leaders, it is just for fun. Then don't give trophys!!
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Re: Previously Race Car is a winner again. Is that a proble

Post by Stan Pope »

There may be some useful reasons for allowing prior year's cars to be raced in current competition. I think that this should be a local decision.

I think that the preponderance of organizations expect / require new cars, i.e. cars that have not raced in prior years. Others expect / require that building of the car not begin prior to last year's races. Each poses difficult enforcement issues.

Related issues include reusing parts from prior cars. For instance, should it be allowed to recycle wheels? axles? tungsten weights? (I don't like to tear my old cars apart like that, but others???)

I know of no way to positively determine when the building of a particular car began. If no way can be found, then it must either be left to "the honor system" (I know that you are honorable, but what about that "greasy looking rascal with the shifty eyes" a few places behind you in the inspection line???) or just left as an uninspected recommendation.

The portion of the car that holds the rear axles might be identified as a critical point... perhaps the most critical point. Replacement of that part might be sufficient cause to believe that the car is "new" or, at least, sufficiently rebuilt as to be treated as "new."

With this in mind, I would recommend that (a) axles be required to be attached directly to the wood of the car and (b) that the area of the axles be left accessible and untreated so that it can be marked with a "Sharpie" pen. The area marked needs to be integral with the wood that holds the axles.

I know from experience with my toddler granddaughter that Sharpie marks on wood (e.g. varnished doors) are almost impossible to remove!. In fact, the marks are difficult to cover with light color paint! (I think that I shall just paint those doors brown ... dark brown! Or, maybe, black!)

This procedure would have to be coordinated between the highest point at which racing rules require "new work" all the way down to the packs or dens that get the building/racing cycle started. Packs would need to avoid markings that would conflict with district and/or council markings.
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Re: Previously Race Car is a winner again. Is that a proble

Post by rdeis »

chad9229 wrote: but I hear from leaders, it is just for fun. Then don't give trophys!!
Yup. That's a BIG Pet Peeve of mine.

You cannot teach a boy to lose gracefully unless he had a stake in winning. You can not teach a boy to win gracefully unless there was something at risk by losing. The lesson of "sportsmanship" **requires** that you care about the outcome!

But to the original point: IMO you should build a new car and our rules say so. Part of the point of the pinewood race is the skill-building and bonding time that comes during car construction.

But if their rules didn't explicitly say a new car must be built, then the car was legal.
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Re: Previously Race Car is a winner again. Is that a proble

Post by BigDozer66 »

M7 Racing wrote:I agree....we were shocked on how different the rules were between Packs. One year we did have to build a new car because of a rule change at districts. Now as a Pack we get the district rules first and just use them as our rules.
We don't have any rules (printed) for our District that I know of. :(

Last year my son and I extended his wheel base and then we were told that we weren't supposed to do that but we would be allowed to race since we didn't know.
I asked "How are we supposed to know if nothing is printed?" so hopefully we will have some printed before the District race this year.
One 'official' says we have to use the original slots but another one says the wheelbase just has to be 4-1/2" or whatever it is. :eee:

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Re: Previously Race Car is a winner again. Is that a proble

Post by Stan Pope »

rdeis wrote:You cannot teach a boy to lose gracefully unless he had a stake in winning. You can not teach a boy to win gracefully unless there was something at risk by losing. The lesson of "sportsmanship" **requires** that you care about the outcome!

But to the original point: IMO you should build a new car and our rules say so. Part of the point of the pinewood race is the skill-building and bonding time that comes during car construction.
Both paragraphs are very profound! Thank you for expressing it so well!
Stan
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