How to keep eBay cars out of your race

General race coordinator discussions.
TAL
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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by TAL » Thu May 10, 2007 4:09 pm

Darin McGrew wrote: However, it should be possible to "just build the car" without unintentionally violating some rule and being disqualified. If the block in your official kit is 7" long, then a maximum length less than 7" is going to cause problems at registration time.
True , A required 1" or 1/2" chop off of the block would have to be notated heavily in the rules and specs...

But a more simple mod or twist would be changing weight requirements which is already part of "just building the car" and again would have to be Notated heavily in the specs...

If there are rule violations, I had rather see a violation by the actual paticipant rather than a car builder/seller... At least the participant would hopefully know how to fix it...



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by Stan Pope » Thu May 10, 2007 4:31 pm

I would not worry much about the RITB (Rule in the Box), since almost every unit/district/council has some rule that is more restrictive than reasonable interpretations of the RITB!

That said, it is very important that communications be effective. That means that pack leaders (and, maybe, the Scout Shop) must be able to give each family a brief (one page) overview of the rules and highlight what is different from last year's rules and from the RITB and then tell 'em where/how to get the rest of the story, e.g. web pages, prints (for the "internet challenged"), etc.


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Darin McGrew
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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by Darin McGrew » Thu May 10, 2007 5:32 pm

Stan, was your RITB comment in response to me?

I wasn't really talking about the RITB. I was talking about child-adult teams who just build the car in the obvious way: cut the block, sand it, paint it, and slap on the wheels. Teams that are doing good to just build the car shouldn't have to worry about being disqualified by violating a silly rule. (This is my main objection to "four on the floor" rules, for example.)



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Stan Pope
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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by Stan Pope » Thu May 10, 2007 8:34 pm

Darin McGrew wrote:Stan, was your RITB comment in response to me?

I wasn't really talking about the RITB. I was talking about child-adult teams who just build the car in the obvious way: cut the block, sand it, paint it, and slap on the wheels. Teams that are doing good to just build the car shouldn't have to worry about being disqualified by violating a silly rule. (This is my main objection to "four on the floor" rules, for example.)
I'm not sure what caused me the sense of needing to talk about the RITB! Skimmed too rapidly, perhaps. I looked back a few posts and didn't see what it was, so perhaps it was a total misunderstanding.

Good points, Darin! Those poor guys are (or should be) in a class of their own along with those who (A) feign ignorance or who (B) stretch credible interpretations. Real and feigned ignorance can be difficult to differentiate in the heat of inspection! (Reminds me of the Dad who "just smoothed his son's wheel tread off with a wad of steel wool." Nicely crowned tread! Could have done really well if allowed to race against peers. But that was a double elimination race, and it would have been a shame to eliminate someone who had followed the rules and made a good car. But we don't do DE anymore, anyway!)


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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by Darin McGrew » Sun May 13, 2007 3:31 pm

Stan Pope wrote:Real and feigned ignorance can be difficult to differentiate in the heat of inspection! (Reminds me of the Dad who "just smoothed his son's wheel tread off with a wad of steel wool." Nicely crowned tread! Could have done really well if allowed to race against peers. But that was a double elimination race, and it would have been a shame to eliminate someone who had followed the rules and made a good car. But we don't do DE anymore, anyway!)
Well, I see a difference between violating a rule by "doing something" that is prohibited (e.g., reshaping the wheels) and violating a rule by "not doing something" that is required (e.g., not shortening a block that started out longer than the maximum length, or not creating four co-planar axle holes to satisfy a "four on the floor" rule).

If someone comes in with reshaped wheels or with non-standard wheels, then we hand them a new set. They must correct the rules violation before they can register the car. But we try to write our rules so that anyone who "just builds the car" will pass inspection.



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by Stan Pope » Sun May 13, 2007 9:31 pm

Excellent discussion, Darin! Anything "just out of the box" should be legal. If it is changed, then it must be changed within the limits of the rules! For instance, I could run the wheels "as is" out of the box, even though they do not satisfy some more stringent rules. But, if I chose to change them, then they are subject to full inspection.

Some parts "in the box" literally beg to be worked! The body block and axles (in BSA kits) are examples. Smoothing the body block into a more "car like" or more streamlined shape seem obvious kinds of changes to make. Rules should not infringe upon removal of material to achieve either "more car like" or "more streamlined." Addition of material (such as a nose extension) seem less obvious changes to make and because of the performance implications, it would be appropriate to make such changes subject to the rules. The problem is, "How do I codify the distinctions?" I think from your statement that I don't try to codify them ... I just structure the rules so that obvious actions on the kit materials don't violate the rules!

It seems so obvious now! :) Thank you!


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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by Darin McGrew » Mon May 14, 2007 11:41 am

Stan Pope wrote:For instance, I could run the wheels "as is" out of the box, even though they do not satisfy some more stringent rules.
Yes, although using rules that the OOTB wheels do not meet seems rather bizarre to me. :shock:
Stan Pope wrote:Smoothing the body block into a more "car like" or more streamlined shape seem obvious kinds of changes to make.
Well, yes. It seems a given that most teams will shape the body somehow (although I've seen a couple exceptions over the years). However, neither "car like" nor "streamlined" has ever been a priority for me. :wink:
Stan Pope wrote:Rules should not infringe upon removal of material to achieve either "more car like" or "more streamlined." Addition of material (such as a nose extension) seem less obvious changes to make and because of the performance implications, it would be appropriate to make such changes subject to the rules. The problem is, "How do I codify the distinctions?" I think from your statement that I don't try to codify them ... I just structure the rules so that obvious actions on the kit materials don't violate the rules!
Exactly.

I'll post an update to my derby rules page soon. Recent discussions on Derby Talk have helped me structure my thoughts on derby rules, so it's time for an update.



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by Stan Pope » Mon May 14, 2007 1:46 pm

Darin McGrew wrote:
Stan Pope wrote:For instance, I could run the wheels "as is" out of the box, even though they do not satisfy some more stringent rules.
Yes, although using rules that the OOTB wheels do not meet seems rather bizarre to me. :shock:
BSA Wheels OOTB have a slight taper to the tread and do not appear exactly flat across the tread. If someone intentionally machined the wheels to that profile, they would probably be rejected in this district! So, if the wheels appear to be "unworked" they are not further inspected. If they are "worked", then wheel inspection continues.


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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by parrot_racing » Mon May 14, 2007 5:18 pm

One of the best ways is to stamp the bottom of all the blocks in the derby kit with your pack number, then if someone screws up a block and needs another one, they simply have to come to ask the pack leader. Rules should state the stamp needs to be visible at time of check in. what do you guys think?



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by Lucky13 » Thu May 17, 2007 2:42 pm

parrot_racing wrote:One of the best ways is to stamp the bottom of all the blocks in the derby kit with your pack number, then if someone screws up a block and needs another one, they simply have to come to ask the pack leader. Rules should state the stamp needs to be visible at time of check in. what do you guys think?
A local pack in our area has been doing this for a few years with success.



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by CanyonLakeDerby » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:43 pm

parrot_racing wrote:One of the best ways is to stamp the bottom of all the blocks in the derby kit with your pack number, then if someone screws up a block and needs another one, they simply have to come to ask the pack leader. Rules should state the stamp needs to be visible at time of check in. what do you guys think?
I like this idea. I was thinking about stamping the heads of the axles and even stamping the wheels if it won't damage/alter the wheels.



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by Bryan » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:53 am

Require them to have photos of the build.



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by Darin McGrew » Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:07 am

Bryan wrote:Require them to have photos of the build.
I don't really like this approach. Some adult-child teams are doing well to deliver a complete derby car at the weigh-in. This would require that they also deliver photographic documentation of the derby car's construction.

If I needed to inspect for eBay cars somehow, then I'd prefer a method that involves only the derby car itself. Branding/stamping the block is a better approach.



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by mbb » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:10 pm

problem with stamping blocks is it may take several tries to get one right. Some thin cars (competitive) may crack from wrong grain orientation. Also blocks vary from about 2.9 - 4.2 oz per block. (About 30%).

By limiting blocks, wheels, axles to what is provided, you take work and knowledge out, and replace it partly with luck of recieving good starting parts. I think this greatly decreases the incentive to be competive, (which is probably the goal of some).


Now if your willing to give everyone as many kits as they want to insure that they all get decent parts, then Id go along with that. The basic problem is that there is really no quality control of parts in the kits, and they are far from equal.

We usually buy about 100 wheels, and at least 6-8 kits to get a few lightwt blocks. I do get stares when weighing the kits in the scoutshop to select the lightest ones, but so what.

:D



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by Darin McGrew » Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:30 am

mbb wrote:problem with stamping blocks is it may take several tries to get one right. Some thin cars (competitive) may crack from wrong grain orientation.
I don't recall anyone saying they wouldn't stamp a replacement block.
mbb wrote:By limiting blocks, wheels, axles to what is provided, you take work and knowledge out, and replace it partly with luck of recieving good starting parts.
If your organization's official kits are that inconsistent, then I think the stamping policy needs to accomodate that. Maybe all you can do is let people buy as many kits as they can afford and stamp them all. But I think it's better for everyone to get a good kit than to maintain a situation where to be competitive, you must be able to afford a dozen or more kits and cherrypick the best components.



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