"Nuts & Bolts" Question About Awards/Times

[RaceFan]

I'm running the pinewood derby in 3 weeks for our pack which consists of over 100 cub scouts. I have never done this before and believe I am in over my head.

We've got a good track & computer timing system which was made by a couple of very intelligent leaders several years ago. Most all of these guys have moved on as their kids are older.

Here is how it all works (or this is my understanding at this point):

1. The track is 3 lanes and each car runs down each lane and the computer gives the average time for each car at the end. It also ranks the 3 cars in a 1st, 2nd & 3rd place for that "heat" (Is that the right term?) At any time, I can use the program & sort the cars by this average time.

2. We are running Tigers, Wolves, Bears, Web I, Web II to determine 1st, 2nd, & 3rd place winners in each rank. The computer does this very well. (oh yeah, we've got me-toos and an adult division but think it's best not to pit me-toos and adults against the cub scouts so I guess those divisions only compete once and not in the finals).

3. HERE's the big question: How do I run the "pack finals"? Run all 1st place winners from each rank against each other and determine 1st, 2nd, 3rd place that way?

We are setting up the night before in the gym to check everything out. Any advice is appreciated, thanks.

I don't want to run this event too quickly. If a car does poorly I guess the cub scout is only going to see it go down the track 3 times.

Does this sound like it's run correctly & fairly?

[blcrow33]

I ran our pack race this year. We gave out trophies for the top finishers in each rank then took the top 12 fastest times from the entire pack for the grand finals race. This made the grand finals race much more competitive. If you take the top times in each rank, there could be a huge difference in times in each rank. This seemed to work out good and everyone enjoyed the grand finals race because it was much more exciting having the cars more equally matched. We had 80 cars in the pack.

[Stan Pope]

I'm running the pinewood derby in 3 weeks for our pack which consists of over 100 cub scouts. I have never done this before and believe I am in over my head.

Congratulations!

We've got a good track & computer timing system which was made by a couple of very intelligent leaders several years ago. Most all of these guys have moved on as their kids are older.

Formulate the plan early, and run it by current and past leaders before finalizing, if you can. I bet that most of those who have "moved on" would give you a half hour or so in a meeting to review your plans and share their knowledge.

Check on the operation of the starting gate. If it is held closed by a latch opened by means of a spring when the latch is released, then it may produce good timings and accurate rankings.

If the gate is held closed by a spring and opened by "armstrong" method (starter manually moves the gate against the pull of the spring), then your starter-induced time variances will mask the car speed time variances! This will NOT produce accurate rankings. Final standings - points results will be more accurate if the opponents are reasonably balanced!

Here is how it all works (or this is my understanding at this point):

1. The track is 3 lanes and each car runs down each lane and the computer gives the average time for each car at the end. It also ranks the 3 cars in a 1st, 2nd & 3rd place for that "heat" (Is that the right term?) At any time, I can use the program & sort the cars by this average time.

2. We are running Tigers, Wolves, Bears, Web I, Web II to determine 1st, 2nd, & 3rd place winners in each rank. The computer does this very well. (oh yeah, we've got me-toos and an adult division but think it's best not to pit me-toos and adults against the cub scouts so I guess those divisions only compete once and not in the finals).

3. HERE's the big question: How do I run the "pack finals"? Run all 1st place winners from each rank against each other and determine 1st, 2nd, 3rd place that way?

If you only take the fastest from each age group, then the probability is very high that you would exclude either the 2nd or 3rd fastest car in the pack from the finals.

Also, you are assuming that the track has stayed consistent for the whole session of racing. One good bump can change its characteristics. If the age groups are being run separately,

We are setting up the night before in the gym to check everything out. Any advice is appreciated, thanks.

I don't want to run this event too quickly. If a car does poorly I guess the cub scout is only going to see it go down the track 3 times.

Does this sound like it's run correctly & fairly?

Sounds like the tradition in your area is that the car builders are racing spectators. Watching track staff race the cars for them. The staff should be able to run multiple heats per minute, perhaps finishing the 100 heats within about an hour. That is still a long time for the youngsters to be spectators, so you might consider having the competition broken by age group and stagger starting the racing.

Advantages for group racing is that the spectators can validate the relative speeds of the cars in the same heat. This will give them some confidence in the timed results. The downside is that anything that changes track performance during the day will skew results to benefit of some age groups and detriment of others.

What can you do to prove that the track is giving consistent timings throughout the day? Running a set of "calibration cars" before and after can help, but interpretation of the calibration runs can be difficult. We need the help of a good statistician to provide a plan for such interpretation.

... then took the top 12 fastest times from the entire pack for the grand finals race.

This avoids some of the "track change" problem.

[CuriousGeorge]

3. HERE's the big question: How do I run the "pack finals"? Run all 1st place winners from each rank against each other and determine 1st, 2nd, 3rd place that way?

Absolutely not!!!
If you are doing 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place overall, you should, at the very least, let the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place from each age division into the finals. Your 3 fastest cars could all be from one rank.

[PWD_addict]

3. HERE's the big question: How do I run the "pack finals"? Run all 1st place winners from each rank against each other and determine 1st, 2nd, 3rd place that way?

Absolutely not!!!
If you are doing 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place overall, you should, at the very least, let the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place from each age division into the finals. Your 3 fastest cars could all be from one rank.

I'd have to agree. My Pack didn't do it that way (top from each rank went to finals) and I'm sure that some of the faster cars didn't make it into the finals. The reason that we did it that way really was to ensure a Trophy was given to the winner in each rank. In each rank, Top 1,2,&3 were awarded medals. Trophies were given only to the finalist but by having only the top 1 in each rank in the finals, they each were guaranteed a trophy.

In our defense, we have Space Derby, Rocket Launch, PWD, and Raingutter Regatta trophies to purchase each year and our budget can't afford much more than 6 trophies (one per rank plus sibling) per event.

[RaceFan]

Stan, Thanks for the input. As I recall from years past, we've got 3 "dowels" that drop instantateously and simultaneously in front of each car. I don't recall ever having any controversy about the starting gate.

I can't really do a full "dress rehearsal" until I actually set the whole track up. The track actually belongs to another pack and is shuttled around all over our area from pack to pack. I might see if I can get it home and set it up in my house (the wife will really love that!!!! ) and try to work the bugs out.

And...I stand corrected on the pack finals. Yes, we run the top 3 in each rank (tigers, wolves, bears, web I, web II) 5 x 3=15 cars total in the finals. Of those, each of the 15 go down the track 3 more times (down each of the 3 lanes) totaling 45 more runs down the track. I could see that taking about 30 minutes to complete.

Barring catastrophic computer failure mid-race or serious operator error on the part of the computer person, this seems like it should work.

Is this pretty much what you guys do?

[Stan Pope]

Stan, Thanks for the input. As I recall from years past, we've got 3 "dowels" that drop instantateously and simultaneously in front of each car. I don't recall ever having any controversy about the starting gate.

They are probably "spring open" then.

My grandson's pack has a timer but the start gate is opened by the starter pulling the gate against the spring that keeps the gate closed. The "fastest heat of the day" is reported but it is as much a function of how the starter moves the pins away from the cars as how fast the particular cars are! Their competition is mainly by heat points. Unless someone benefits from a "barge nose" and "slow gate opening", the variances for gate opening speed don't hurt as much.

And...I stand corrected on the pack finals. Yes, we run the top 3 in each rank (tigers, wolves, bears, web I, web II) 5 x 3=15 cars total in the finals. Of those, each of the 15 go down the track 3 more times (down each of the 3 lanes) totaling 45 more runs down the track. I could see that taking about 30 minutes to complete.

The way most run it, that is actually 15 more heats running 3 at a time. Easily completed in 30 minutes ... probably much less.

[RaceFan]

The way most run it, that is actually 15 more heats running 3 at a time. Easily completed in 30 minutes ... probably much less.

Stan, I think we're talking about the same thing, but to clarify:

We've got 5 different ranks (Tigers, Wolves, Bears, Web I, Web II).
We've got 1st, 2nd, & 3rd place winners in each rank.

3 winners x 5 ranks = 15 winners.

A "heat" is when we line up 3 cars on all 3 lanes and run them down 3 times, each on different lanes, and get the average times. Our software will sort the cars according to best times.

So, we'll be sending little miniature wooden boogers down the track 45 times total during pack finals, correct?

Did I get it right?

[Stan Pope]

So, we'll be sending little miniature wooden boogers down the track 45 times total during pack finals, correct?

Yes, 45 LMWB runs down the track in 15 groups of 3! That is what I thought you meant until you dropped the outrageous time estimate on us!

[PWD_addict]

The way most run it, that is actually 15 more heats running 3 at a time. Easily completed in 30 minutes ... probably much less.

Stan, I think we're talking about the same thing, but to clarify:

We've got 5 different ranks (Tigers, Wolves, Bears, Web I, Web II).
We've got 1st, 2nd, & 3rd place winners in each rank.

3 winners x 5 ranks = 15 winners.

A "heat" is when we line up 3 cars on all 3 lanes and run them down 3 times, each on different lanes, and get the average times. Our software will sort the cars according to best times.

So, we'll be sending little miniature wooden boogers down the track 45 times total during pack finals, correct?

Did I get it right?

In our pack, we consider a "heat" as a single race (in your case, three cars going down the track one time).

[gpraceman]

A "heat" is when we line up 3 cars on all 3 lanes and run them down 3 times, each on different lanes, and get the average times.

IMO, that is a rather boring racing scheme and will take much longer to run than running other methods like Perfect-N type charts, Stearns, and Round Robin.

- Kids sit around getting bored waiting for their runs, bam...bam...bam...they're done, and then they sit around waiting getting bored until the race is over. I much rather having them mixed up in the schedule so they stay more involved.

- The number of opponents for each racer is extremely limited (only 2), so Johnny will likely lose to Billy 3 straight times. If they have a variety of opponents then a racer's odds of winning a heat (or at least getting 2nd) are much higher. Of course, if you score by times, they are racing the clock, not the racers in the next lane. However, it does matter to the kids and to their parents how they finish in a heat (a heat being 3 cars once down the track in this case). It ends up being much more exciting for everyone involved.

- You waste a lot of time waiting for cars to be returned from the finish line. Whereas with other methods you can have the next set of cars staged and ready to go once the current heat is over. This allows for a much faster race, so you can get done quicker or squeeze in more racing.

Personally, I like running the Perfect-N type charts (PN, PPN, CPN) as they mixup when racers will be running, they make sure they will run in each lane (and an equal number of times), and they give each racer a variety of opponents. Also, they do not give an inordinate number of total heats (#heats = #racers X #runs per lane) like Stearns or RR can.

[CuriousGeorge]

The staff should be able to run multiple heats per minute, perhaps finishing the 100 heats within about an hour.

I need those guys at our race!!!

Does 100 heats per hour qualify them for Nascar?

We are lucky to get a heat every two minutes, and yes the officials stage the cars.

[gpraceman]

We are lucky to get a heat every two minutes, and yes the officials stage the cars.

If they don't print out the race schedule, they should. Then whoever is in charge of getting the cars ready for the next heat can have them ready to go. They may even be able to stage two or more heats in advance. This will really help get heat turnaround times much closer to one minute or less.

[BigDozer66]

Will the GPRM software use times to keep up with racers or will it use Perfect-N type charts?

I'm not trying to hijack RaceFan's post and if needed I will start my own post?

Thanks,
Lynn

[gpraceman]

Will the GPRM software use times to keep up with racers or will it use Perfect-N type charts?

Scoring and scheduling are two different things. You can score by points or times when using Perfect-N type charts for scheduling. There are some scheduling methods, like Lane Rotation that have a rather poor number of opponents for each racer that you would not want to use points scoring with, only times.