BSA pinewood rules

[Bulldog]

Don't know if this had been touched on before- Thought I'd throw it out there, anyway.


Many districts (even packs within districts, for that matter) have different rules as to car construction. The most common rule I've seen different is whether a car needs to have three or four wheels touching the track, something which makes quite a difference! I've also rules that require the use of axle slots, where some districts even allow changing the wheelbase. Wheel modifications are also a rule where some districts are quite liberal, while others don't allow any modifications at all.

Would it not make sense for the BSA to adopt a set of standard rules, not to be deviated from? It is difficult (and quite unfair) to match cars up against each other that were made to a different set of requirements.

[gpraceman]

The issue actually has been discussed many times. Most everyone wants to see better "rules in the box". However, like you have noticed, there are two camps, those that allow a lot of lattitude and those that try to even the playing field by limiting modifications (some more so than others). I believe that BSA is afraid to address the topic, because it is likely to drum up lots of controversy. Valid arguments can be given by both camps and it is hard to find a middle ground that all will be able to accept.

Until there are better "rules in the box", the rules from council need to be applied down to the districts and then down to the packs. If there is no council race, then it is up to the individual districts to set their rules and to get the packs to mirror them. If no council nor district race, then it is completely up to the packs.

[SlartyBartFast]

The only important thing is that the rules are consistent up through a competition.

That the pack/council/district races all use the same rules.

Considering the effort and equipment required to run PWD, if an area is organised enough to have higher level races, they should also be organised enough to pool resources and rules.

[Pinewood Daddy]

Last year I did a search for PWD rules in our Council. There are 6 Districts, all having their own version. Some liberal, some more strict. I can't believe our Council doesn't have a common rule set!! I went to the Council race last year (invited) knowing that there are Districts that allowed extended wheelbase and wheel mods.

I volunteered to join the District PWD Committee to clarify the rules. My pet peeve has been the 4 wheels touching. They check for it but it's not even in the rules!!!!

[Go Bubba Go]

Our Council has rules that are quite strict.

We adopt them line for line (with a couple adds regarding participation, but not regarding car specs) for our Pack rules so that there are no inconsistencies.

The Council rules actually stipulate that the cars sent on to Council must be those of the first and second place winners for each age group at the Pack level, and that the cars must be impounded immediately after running in the Pack races with no modifications allowed between the events.

Some Packs in our Council have taken to organizing their own separate District races, usually with much more liberal rules. In this case, the boys build a separate car for Districts.

I do not think it would be a good idea to "nationalize" BSA rules, in fact IMO it would be a move in the wrong direction. The Packs, Districts, and Councils are LOCAL organizations and should be allowed to fit the rules to the liking of their own members.

If someone wants to organize a National race and invite scouts to participate on a voluntary basis, good for them.

However, if someone wants to dictate the rules from the National level to the States, Councils, Districts and Packs, I think they have begun to think too much of themselves and too little of the constituents they serve (the constituents don't serve them).

Strict vs. Loose rules is not really a binary function. There is quite a spectrum of opinion. When you pick one very specific set (as you must) to apply, you will satisfy only a very narrow section of that spectrum. The vast majority will be dissatisfied (some quietly, others not so much) with your selection.

Without getting too philosophical about the issue, I believe we already teach our boys WAY, WAY too much to look somewhere else (usually to some far-removed, self-pronounced "expert") to determine the "right" approach to what should be a local issue. We need to spend more time teaching them (by example) how to work through disagreements on their own, without resorting to "National" or "experts" to settle the question for them.

There are some advantages to standardization (I am often curious how our skills compare against others, and it is hard to tell when rules, tracks, etc. vary widely), but those advantages would hardly be worth the loss of freedom involved in having some far-away "expert" dictate to us whether or not our little band of 50 boys can be allowed to "3 wheel".

Having us all "play PWD" according to a very narrowly defined set of rules (rather than allowing variation locally) would also limit our field of experience and opportunity to learn. I often learn from people on this board who have a much "wider" sandbox to play in than our stricter rules allow.
Advantages to imposed National rules: Small.

Disadvantages to imposed National rules: Huge.

Sorry, away with the soapbox!

Again, not saying a "National" event couldn't be organized for participation on a voluntary basis. But "Nationally required" rules, no thanks

[Bulldog]

Bubba,
You bring up excellent points, and I agree with most of them.

I am most concerned about districts and councils in which rules vary among the packs contained within them. Upon advancing to the next level, one car may be at a disadvantage, because the pack it came from had more strict rules, while another may be disqualified because it's pack has rules which are more lenient. I agree that a council should adopt a set of rules, and all packs and districts within should adopt those rules as well. That is, with respect to car design. When it comes to how the race itself is run, I'm fine with each pack being autonomous.

Personally, I favor more strict rules, so as to not put some boys at a disadvantage when they do not have access to certain resources that others have. While it might limit some of our fun, I believe it to be the most fair option. But enough of my opinion in that regard. I was more curious as to how people felt about standardizing design rules at least within a given council, regardless as to what the rules themselves are.

[Go Bubba Go]

Bubba...

I agree that a council should adopt a set of rules, and all packs and districts within should adopt those rules as well. That is, with respect to car design. When it comes to how the race itself is run, I'm fine with each pack being autonomous.

Well put. Our Pack basically does just that, with one of the main purposes being to prevent (or at least minimize) DQ issues at the Council races.

Personally, I favor more strict rules, so as to not put some boys at a disadvantage when they do not have access to certain resources that others have. While it might limit some of our fun, I believe it to be the most fair option.

A few thoughts on "strict" rules and resources...

When the rules are overly strict they also limit what can be learned and applied. I consider this a wonderful activity to open the eyes of boys to the rich fun of applied physics (I just don't call it that in their presence ). And I like to open that door as wide as possible, given their age and ability to comprehend, etc...

There are lots of resources that are available (either knowledge (DT, Stan's book, MaxV video) or tools) at a pretty low price (sometimes free). Modifications that require purchasing an expensive lathe (or prepped products from someone that has such) are IMO "over the top" for a boys race. But one can buy (and share at the Pack Workshop, if needed) a wheel mandrel, pro body tool, and other such stuff for a pretty low price, all things considered.

Finally, gotta watch out for "unintended consequences" with strict rules. We have a four wheels, entire surface of all 4 have to touch rule with respect to wheels. While intended to prevent boys who would (or who's Dad would) H or V groove wheels, raise a wheel, cant axles, etc., many beginners have a difficult time getting their simple creations to pass this rule, esp. when using the pre-cut BSA slots. What was meant to keep the "pros" from getting out of hand, has instead created a headache mainly for the beginners.

[2kids10horses]

Bubba, you are correct about the unintended consequences! Especially with that 4 wheels touching rule. We have that, too. And I have seen several cars broken right at checkin time when boys or dads are wiggling axles to try to get those wheels to touch.

Our rules state: "3 wheels touching is an advantage and must not be allowed." Gee... if everyone KNOWS it's an advantage, why not just make it legal?

2k10h

[pwdarchitect]

4 wheels touching is harder, IMO, than 3 for a young scout that "has to use the slots" and doesn't have access to a probody tool or a drill press to ensure the axles go in at the right place. Even with the probody tool the is some adjustments that are necessary once the shape is cut if the car is cut thin.

[Darin McGrew]

Re: "four wheels touching" rules

We have that, too. And I have seen several cars broken right at checkin time when boys or dads are wiggling axles to try to get those wheels to touch.

That's so sad, and so unnecessary. One of my derby principles is that anyone should be able to just build the car from the pieces in the kit. And almost anyone who "just builds the car" will end up with only three wheels touching. There is no benefit from imposing such a rule, and there is a significant cost.

[2kids10horses]

This past week, I happened to speak with the Council PWD Chairman, and we discussed the rules. We were primarily discussing wheels, but he made a comment about having 4 wheels touching to "provide a challenge" for the boys. He acknowedged that it is difficult to do.

We benefit from a set of rules that are set by our Council, which distributes them to Districts, which then distribute them to Packs. So, at least we're singing from the same hymn book! Of course, the rules can be "interpreted" differently by different people, which is what prompted my call to the PWD Chair. Fortunately, my understanding of our rules are what was intended.

This becomes important since the top three from District advance to Council. If some Districts "interpret" rules differently than others, this would affect how those cars do at Council.

With all that said, our rules are somewhat vague, and in general pretty lax. The 4 wheels down is the most restrictive, with the added requirement that the original slots must be used. And, only dry lube.

Since these are the only rules I have ever had to follow, I rather like them. They allow for a lot of creativity. However, if I could change anything, I would allow 3 wheelers and liquid lubes. But, I don't set the rules, just follow them, enforce them, and exploit them! (The enforce them means that I EXPLAINED them carefully to all when I handed out the kits!)

2k10h... still waiting for the mare to have her foal...

[Scoremaker]

2kids10horses, the rules been like that ever since your son been in Boy Scouts and been racing.Everyone wants three wheels not touching because it like you said Our rules state: "3 wheels touching is an advantage and must not be allowed." Gee... if everyone KNOWS it's an advantage, why not just make it legal? Do what Stan tells everyone get involved talk the the Chairman who's doing the rules.When my oldest son race we where aloud to have three wheels not touching,but time has change and they seen the advantages what a three wheel car has between a four wheel car.There's a lot of changes they have made when my oldest race you use to have hub caps etc.. the wheels change style when my youngest son started Scout.I disagree how they run the Council race when my youngest son was a Tiger.Stan told me to email the Chairman who runs the Council race and give him my input how they can run a better race,also get involved thats what they like.We all have to go by rules when we where kids and now adults thats how its been.If we want to change something CHANGE IT!!!
Also look at the date of the rules that was give to each Pack and Council Level when was the last time it was updated.I even got the rules back when my oldest son was a scout.

[Stan Pope]

This past week, I happened to speak with the Council PWD Chairman, and we discussed the rules. We were primarily discussing wheels, but he made a comment about having 4 wheels touching to "provide a challenge" for the boys. He acknowedged that it is difficult to do.

This is an interesting comment. It suggests that some considerable thought has gone into the rule. (Or, perhaps, that some ex post facto justification has happened.) Either way, if it is consistently applied across the competitions, then it gives advantage to the more skilled builder and to the "purely lucky" builder.

The question that I have is whether the greater skill requirement is "age appropriate". Getting all those axles level and in the same plane requires a degree of planning and execution (or tooling) that I'd start looking for later in their young lives. The "kit insert" showing driving the nails in with a hammer is not consistent with the required "planning and execution." So, it seems to me that the council's choice pushes the bar higher than is indicated by the kit insert.

If anyone should be pushing for the "4 wheels touching" rule to be relaxed, it should be the hundreds of less skilled, less experienced, more frustrated parents that have not yet accummulated your skills and tooling!

From an organizer's point of view, I'd be concerned whether the rule inhibits participation to any significant degree.

2k10h... still waiting for the mare to have her foal...

Out here in the country, when Mom is overdue we take a ride in the old Ford along the bumpy country roads! Is your mare waiting for her ride?

[2kids10horses]

Our rules have not changed in the past 3 years. Each year, they have been redistributed, with a "revision date" on the bottom of the page, but there have been no changes.

Our first year (Tiger), I was not aware of any rules other than those that came in the box. I did as instructed, and drove my axles in with a hammer! (oh boy! Have things changed! LOL!!!)

Our Wolf year, I don't think we were given any rules until after the Pack race was over, but before the District race was held. That was the first year we entered the District race. We were the fastest in our Den, but 4th in Pack. We won a couple of rounds at District, (a double elim race) but a Tiger in our Pack won District. That was when we decided that if HE could do it, WE could!

So, before our Bear race, I started to scour the Internet for PWD information, and bought a tips online manual. It was pretty good, but not as good as the info in this forum.

But, it was then that I started to study the rules. Prior to our Bear year, I wasn't aware that all PWD had different rules, or the awareness to take advantage of the rules. But, it was after we placed 3rd in District, thus qualifying for a trip to Council, that I really began to seek the advanced techniques. I found this Forum, and discovered how the rules can be pushed to the limits!

Case in point: Our rules state that the "axle slots cannot be moved from the original locations, and the BSA wheels must be attached in those slots..." But, I learned about the technique of cutting wood off the back, and adding it to the front. Is that "moving the axle slots"? Was the intent of the rule to prohibit that, or just to prohibit an extended wheelbase? Only one way to find out: Ask! So, I did. i called the guy running the Council race, and I was told that cutting from the back and adding to the front was legal! It was too late for that car, but it's been a part of our cars ever since.

So, this year, a similiar question came up about wheel modifications, I called the Council rulemaker, just to be sure. And, made sure the guy in charge of the District Derby called him, too. I've been asked to help inspect cars (since I know the rules so well ) , but I declined THAT job, because I told him my son is racing, and has a VERY competitive car, and while it's legal, I don't want anyone to think I gave him special treatment at inspection. I'll work to stage the cars, or work the timer or something.

The 4 wheels touching requirement is the toughest rule to meet. Last year, one car that qualified to race at Council didn't pass initial inspection because of it. I don't think it prevents anyone from entering, but there are a lot of last second adjustments to 1) get the weight right, and 2) get those wheels touching.

The mare, by the way, is miserable. Her official due date is this Saturday. 3 more days. We've given her a double stall, with an outside turnout. She can't run in the pasture because we have fescue pasture, and that's bad for pregant mares. We put her in our sand arena for exercise, and feed her bermuda hay. The goat is keeping her company.

2k10h

[Pinewood Daddy]

So, this year, a similiar question came up about wheel modifications, I called the Council rulemaker, just to be sure. And, made sure the guy in charge of the District Derby called him, too. I've been asked to help inspect cars (since I know the rules so well ) , but I declined THAT job, because I told him my son is racing, and has a VERY competitive car, and while it's legal, I don't want anyone to think I gave him special treatment at inspection. I'll work to stage the cars, or work the timer or something.

The 4 wheels touching requirement is the toughest rule to meet.

I'm in the same boat this year. I asked the District PWD Chairman too many questions, so he asked me to help. I will probably inspect and may stage, but not for the cars in my town, since I will probably have 2 boys going to the District race again. We'll find out Friday night.

Ahh yes, 4 wheels. My pet peeve. But that's been beaten to death lately.