Pack Finals Today....Done WRONG?

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RaceFan
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Pack Finals Today....Done WRONG?

Post by RaceFan »

I just coordinated my 1st PWD race. We had 81 different cars & it ran fairly smoothly. Here's what I did, & please tell me if you think it was fair:

1st, 2nd & 3rd place winners were determined in each of the 5 ranks (tiger, bear, wolf, webI, webII). Only those 1st, 2nd, & 3rd place winners competed in the pack finals (15 different cars). There's no problem up to here. We ran each car down each of the 3 lanes and took the average time to determine how they placed.

In tallying up the scores tonight, I realized there may have been faster cars who finished in 4th or 5th place in their rank but wouldn't make the pack finals. The bear rank, for example, all had really fast cars. The 4th, 5th and other place bear finishers wouldn't make it to the finals but a WebII with a really slow 3rd place car would.

Did I do this wrong?

Should I have just taken the top 15 fastest times (regardless of rank) and raced them against each other?

Somebody recommended just using the top 15 fastest in a post I put up weeks ago but I wasn't following what he was saying until just now.

What's best for next year? Thanks, guys. This was the toughest thing I've ever put together. The kids had fun, so it was worth it.

How do you like my adult division car? :shock:





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Last edited by RaceFan on Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Pack Finals Today....Done WRONG?

Post by RaceFan »

I wanted to add that the top 3 from the pack finals did have the top 3 scores in the pack. So I guess there's nothing terribly wrong.

There was the advantage that all ranks were involved in the finals thereby keeping the kids interested.

Any additional input for next year will be appreciated, thanks.
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Stan Pope
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Re: Pack Finals Today....Done WRONG?

Post by Stan Pope »

You're okay. You have not pretended to identify any but the fastest 3 in the pack. Had you given 4th and 5th place trophies in the finals, then your concern would be reasonable. (My grandson's council races consist of 4 "flights" of cars with participants divided approximately evenly ... and hopefully randomly ... among the 4 groups. The top 2 racers from each group then race in finals from which are awarded 4 overall place trophies. See the problem?)

If you reran the den races several times, there is a likelihood that the "top 5" in each grade might shift around. But you have a reasonably established the best three candidates from each den as the three fastest in the pack.

With the finals, they get to prove their earlier times.

You might find it interesting to compare the finish order of each den's representatives during the finals ... Did they finish in the same order?
Stan
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Re: Pack Finals Today....Done WRONG?

Post by RaceFan »

Image

Thanks for the quick reply, Stan. I feel better about things, now.

What would be your recommendation for next year? Just the top 15 fastest cars compete in the finals regardless of rank?
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Re: Pack Finals Today....Done WRONG?

Post by Stan Pope »

RaceFan wrote:What would be your recommendation for next year? Just the top 15 fastest cars compete in the finals regardless of rank?
I prefer what you did this year because it rewards the younger scouts results relative to their peers. Also, when you run separate groups, you risk track timing changes (e.g. a good bump anywhere along the track) and penalize deserving racers.
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Re: Pack Finals Today....Done WRONG?

Post by RaceFan »

You might find it interesting to compare the finish order of each den's representatives during the finals ... Did they finish in the same order?
In 3 of the 5 dens they finished in the same order in the finals as they did in their earlier den-specific races. The other 2 were a bit out of order.

I want to add that it's a wood track and I set up and tested cars the night before the race. I used cars from prior years which were all about equal. I noticed that If I ran 3 equal cars down each lane and took the average, did it again, did it again, a few times I'd usually get a different winning car each time.

In other words the fastest car wasn't always the fastest. We're talking about 100ths of a second here so I think we did the best that could be done.

I believe our track (which gets passed around from pack to pack in the area - I believe it's at least 10 years old) is 45 feet long. It needs re-finishing as the finish is cracking. Sometimes the tongue & groove connection where the different pieces meet would come loose so the thing is just old and inconsistent.
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Re: Pack Finals Today....Done WRONG?

Post by RaceFan »

I prefer what you did this year because it rewards the younger scouts results relative to their peers.
Wow! I am really vindicated, now! Thanks. 8)
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Re: Pack Finals Today....Done WRONG?

Post by blcrow33 »

I ran our pack race this year and we decided instead of taking the top 3 cars from each den to race in the finals, we would take the 12 fastest cars overall to race in the finals. We got a lot of good feed back from this because it made the final race that much more competitive and exciting. The top three finishers in each den still got den trophies. This format was laid out very clearly in the rules so know one was surprised.
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Re: Pack Finals Today....Done WRONG?

Post by RaceFan »

blcrow33 wrote:I ran our pack race this year and we decided instead of taking the top 3 cars from each den to race in the finals, we would take the 12 fastest cars overall to race in the finals.
Yes, I believe either way is fair. I did put out in advance to the pack that I was going to take the top 3 from each rank to race in the finals so I had to stick to it.

I just e-mailed out the scores to our pack. I am curious to see if anybody doesn't understand why their faster 5th place Bear car didn't make it to the finals while the slower 3rd place Web II car did.

Next year, I am going to bring this up at the committe meeting to see how everybody wants to do it. I think the main thing is put it in the rules or announcements so nobody was surprised.

I was surprised the bears slaughtered all our web IIs!!!! I guess the Web IIs are more into Boy Scouts now since they bridged over last month.
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Re: Pack Finals Today....Done WRONG?

Post by PWD_addict »

I agree that you did it right. Our pack only takes the fastest from each rank for the finals and it definitely didn't create close finals (top two were close but rest were not). There were definitely some faster cars that may have taken second or third this year had we chosen the overall fastest 5 cars.

It would be nice if each of the fastest cars per rank were included in the finals but we may have to include 8 or 12 or 16 cars in the finals to guarantee that.

Bottom line is that you followed the rules which were distributed beforehand so it was "legally" FAIR. Given that you included the top three from each rank/den in the finals, it seems "morally" fair, IMHO.
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Re: Pack Finals Today....Done WRONG?

Post by RaceFan »

ahh, thanks! I feel much better about things.

The kids and I are looking forward to the district races. It'll be fun to just turn the cars in, relax, and just watch the race!

Running the thing kinda took the fun out if it for me. My Bear Cub had a great time so it was worth it.
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Re: Pack Finals Today....Done WRONG?

Post by Stan Pope »

RaceFan wrote:It'll be fun to just turn the cars in, relax, and just watch the race!
But you will see the process with a more trained and knowledgable eye! Hopefully, you don't see too many aspects that are not well done.
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Re: Pack Finals Today....Done WRONG?

Post by Go Bubba Go »

RaceFan wrote:I was surprised the bears slaughtered all our web IIs!!!! I guess the Web IIs are more into Boy Scouts now since they bridged over last month.
Those results are in line with similar results we had at our Pack this year.

At our Pack races the top 12 finishers (had to go down to #12 to get the first Webelo 2) were as follows:
#1 Wolf
#2 Bear
#3 Bear
#4 Wolf
#5 Tiger
#6 Wolf
#7 Webelo 1
#8 Bear
#9 Wolf
#10 Webelo 1
#11 Bear
#12 Webelo 2

Here's my take on the rankings:

Tigers - the one Tiger we had in the top 12 is the 3rd in a family of 5 boys. Dad has a little experience from having 2 other boys ahead of the Tiger (#7 and #13 are his brothers), and the Tiger is young enough that he needs more help from Dad.

Wolves - 1 of the 4 in the top 12 (#1) has a TOP for a Dad, and another 1 (#4) visited Bubba for some TOP tips. The Dad's and boys both have at least one previous Pinewood under their belts, and Dad's are still pretty hands on with Junior's car at this point.

Bears - 2 of the 4 Bears in the top 12 (#2 and #3) are from Team Bubba :D. The other Dad's and boys also both have at least 2 previous Pinewoods under their belts, and while Dad's are slowing turning over more of the work to the boys, they are still helping.

Webelo 1 - 1 of the 2 in the top 12 is also from the family of 5 boys (could be 6 boys, I'm not 100% sure - I have enough trouble keeping track of our own :oops: ). Experienced Dad, but boy doing most of the work.

Webelo 2 - Just 1 in the top 12 (#12). At this point he is doing most of his own work.

All other things being equal, I would generally expect the Wolves and Bears to come out on top. Their Father/Son teams will typically have at least one or two recent Pinewoods worth of experience (not as frequently true with Tigers), and yet they are young enough (sometimes so is Dad) that Dad is still more directly involved in the assembly of the car (not as frequently true with Webelo 1 or 2s).

Once I had the data, I guess I couldn't help but perform at least a little bit of analysis on it :wink:
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Re: Pack Finals Today....Done WRONG?

Post by RacerRusty »

New guy here so let me know if I'm out of line. I have a thought that may be good or not.

From the top 3's of each group, take the average time of the slowest car to use as a base line. Then award a "Wild Card" slot in the finals race to each remaining car that has an average time equal to or better than the base line. That would elimiate any cars not making it into the finals race when their average times were better than some of the cars that did.

Of course that could result in dang near all the cars being in the finals race.

Using that same idea though you could make it known that in next years race there will be "X" number of "Wild Card" slots for the finals race that will be awarded to the fastest cars not finishing in the top 3 of there group. Of course this is not a perfect solution. But it should reduce the number of cars with better average times than some in the finals yet did not make it to the finals. Does that sentance make sense? :oops:

That should make the finals race even more exciting with more people involved.

Just a thought. :D
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Re: Pack Finals Today....Done WRONG?

Post by Stan Pope »

RacerRusty wrote:New guy here so let me know if I'm out of line. I have a thought that may be good or not.
No disclaimer necessary! :)
RacerRusty wrote:From the top 3's of each group, take the average time of the slowest car to use as a base line. Then award a "Wild Card" slot in the finals race to each remaining car that has an average time equal to or better than the base line. That would elimiate any cars not making it into the finals race when their average times were better than some of the cars that did.
This is not inherently a bad idea. It is equivalent to sorting all the racers average times and including all top until every group is represented by three racers.

You would have some difficulty if the age groups were staggered, since the racers from the early groups would not know who (except for the top 3) qualified and should be sure to be present for the finals. Small packs don't need long-duration staggers, so it would not be a problem for them.

The assumption is that finals racing will award no more trophies than representatives from each age group. For instance, if three reps advance to finals from each age group, then finals can not claim to identify the 4th and 5th fastest in the whole pack... only 1st through 3rd.

Even then, there may be some error, since each racer's set of times are really a sampling of his performance, and subject to some sampling error. It will show up by noting that the fastest half of the finalists, based on their times in the preliminaries, will have a slower overall average time in the finals than in the prelims, i.e. they will seem to get worse. Surprisingly (to some), the slowest half will have a faster overall average time, i.e. they will seem to get better! The result is illusory! A trained statistician can tell you the name of the effect. (I used to know, but it is one of the many things I've forgotten over the years.)

Finals are really only needed to prove that the track held calibration throughout all the groups' runs. There were no track bumps or shifts that changed its characteristics.
Stan
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