Allow PineCar Kits or Not Next Year?

[Darin McGrew]

The axles are one piece, not individual nails for each wheel. They use caps to hold the wheels on. The caps often pop off and are not so easy to find.

Ah, yes. I remember those now. We used PineCar kits one year (our paperwork wasn't in with CSB, so they wouldn't let us order CSB kits). We had a lot of problems with those kits that year.

• Many of the plastic caps popped off, and then the wheels came off, of course.
• Even when the plastic caps stayed on, many of the wheels were pinched between the plastic cap and the car body.
• Even when the wheels weren't pinched, there seemed to be a lot more friction between the plastic wheels and the plastic cap, than with plastic wheels and metal axle heads.
• Centering a single long axle in the block is a lot harder than inserting two separate pin-style axles.

It seems that we needed to narrow the blocks of wood an eighth inch or so, otherwise there wasn't room to snap the caps on without binding the wheels between the cap and the car body. Of course, we had never used these kits before, so we didn't know this beforehand. But even knowing that, I don't like the kit design.

[Mr. Slick]

I personally HATE the pre-cut blocks and as a result I hold workshops for people to come and use the tools and get guidance. This season there are 13 different weekends. We have a local store that I mention to leaders at round table that actually has BSA kits that are precut so the correct axles/wheels are provided . . . but here are the rules for our district . . . which I created.

OVERALL: All cars must be built for the current Pinewood Derby Season. NO REPEATS.

ONLY OFFICIAL BSA PINEWOOD DERBY KIT AND PARTS may be used. Cars that were purchased completed may not be used. If the builder lacks the resources to cut out a car from a stock block of wood, attendance at one of the district provided workshops is strongly encouraged. Alternately, a pre-shaped block may be purchased to be used with the stock BSA Wheels and Axles.

I've learned that not everything can be done MY way. As far as a FLAME AGAINST P-Car axles/wheels - They do not last for multiple races when used by the people who are using them. IF the builder is experienced they will know to narrow the body so that they can be used. Since I host lots of races, I even stock extra hubs to help the cars get through the races. I have run out of my supply for this year. . . . about 80 hubs. . .

[RaceFan]

I appreciate your input and passion regarding the subject, fellas. I kept it 100% BSA kits only this year and it worked out very well so I probably shouldn't be messing with success!

We were in Hobby Lobby a few days after the event and I saw the PineCar kits and just thought it's a shame we seldom use them. Maybe they'd serve a better purpose for siblings only or something like that in the future. (or maybe the wife & kids will get me one for Father's day and I can build it and get the whole PineCar thing out of my system!!!! )

Maybe we could just use them for show cars or something sometime. Right now, I'm just batting around ideas and we're still going with a 100% BSA kit for next year.

Thanks, sorry I stirred things up!

[RMoose]

My situation is a little different since I race with our local RA group at church and not BSA. We ordered only the block kits a few years ago and got poor participation among the younger boys, so the following year we ordered a variety of the kit styles available and saw participation increase. Now we blow up the order form, make copies and let the kids choose the body style they want. They enjoy picking out "their" car and this seems to work well for us. The RA kit supplier offers about 12 different pre-cut styles to choose from.

Now some do just paint and race with the pre-cut kit, but many customize it so it no longer resembles the original style. I always encourage them to go for the block and tell them it can be cut down and shaped into a "faster" car than the others, but the majority of the kits selected are the pre-cut styles.

Partly I think this is due to many boys having already made a car for Scouts and not wanting to do another car from scratch - they want to race but want a less time consuming way. I suspect we have had BSA blocks, Pine Care Blocks, who knows what else show up for our RA races. As long as they have RA wheels and met the rules we let them race.

I haven't figured out how on race day you ID the origin of the block of wood or if it started out as a whole block or was pre-shaped; or what you do if you can determine that! I know our rules encourage use of the RA kits, but do not require it past the rule on using RA wheels only.

Bottom line is to do what works best in your particular situation.

[RaceFan]

RMoose, thanks for the information.

I think the kits definitely have a place, but probably not in Cub Scouts. My son got a "Craftsman" kit from his well-meaning sister in law for Christmas. He wasn't allowed to race it so his 8 year old sister assembled and painted it the night before and raced it in the sibling division. We had a blast with it!!! It was easy to assemble and my son and daughter had fun.

We might use them for something in the future besides an official Scout activity.

[Go Bubba Go]

I think the kits definitely have a place, but probably not in Cub Scouts.

That kind of summarizes my opinion on the issue.

I think kits can be useful in some circumstances, as with "young youngsters" who want to "me too, me too" participate in a sibling race, but have only basic motor skills and not a lot of patience.

My 2 and 4 year olds get involved with Pinewood, but each at their own level. They both brush paint their cars (yes, and themselves in the process), and like to "help out" by handing me the parts as "we" put their cars together.

While we custom cut their cars each year (this year Lightning McQueen for the 2 year old and Little Mermaid for the 4 year old), I don't think that at this age they would miss out on too much if we handed them a pre-cut instead. I don't think I could bring myself to do it, but I could understand someone else, esp. a relative newby, doing so with their "young youngsters" in order to devote more time to helping their Scouts.

But as they get older, and their abilities and imaginations expand, pre-cuts will become "objecta non grata" at our house.

[ciodude]

My wife says I plan too much, but I always start the kids out with them drawing what they want the car to look like for me. I try to translate that into a workable solution for the pine block. If it doesnt work, I try to explain why and have them redesign it. I do some of the initial cuts and they do the follow on work and then we work the wheels together.

I understand why you'd want to allow the precut designs. Our BSA Pack does not do that. The AWANAs group we belong to did something similar (choose from a solid block or 4 different shapes). My youngest (4) picked a precut shape and the two older ones (6 and picked blocks so they could do whatever they wanted.

All in all I think the ideas raised, working on cars in Den meetings and general encouragement would make it less necessary. Another idea would be to run an "adult" race so the frustrated dads/parents can put their main efforts on their own racer instead of their child's racer.

[dstory]

I agree with many of the posts already submitted in this thread. You have to ask what the goal of the derby is. In 10 or 20 years, the car won't matter. But the time spent building a car can create timeless memories and bonds. I think the relational part of the process is the most valuable part of the whole gig. If you cut out the time required to build the car, you also cut out the time at building relational time. I think that is a poor choice. Just my opinion.

Happy Racing

Don

[pack529holycross]

I am contemplating allowing the PineCar kits (bodies, side pieces, assembly kits, etc.)

I am aware we'd have to use BSA wheels & axles. We would not, under any circumstances, use the pinecar solid axle & wheels.

We're only considering allowing the bodies.

The main advantage is that it's something the boy can build without Dad getting in there and doing the whole thing. We're just considering it...

here is how i am handling this issue this year..

precut bodies are, for the most part... pine

precut bodies have the same inherent flaws as any other source of raw materials

precut bodies do not GROSSLY increase the performance of a car on the track, in and of themselves

the intent of the rule ( in my opinion) is to increase fairness with the competition.

that being said... as a coordinator and event chairman, I personally desire to insure that the ALLOWABLE resources are appropriate to "cast the widest net " amongst potential participants.. ( goal is 100% participation ).

given this premise, I have ruled that tigers and siblings are allowed the use of precut but not prepainted car bodies. In my opinion, giving parents an option for their sons very first car to focus on paint and decorations does not detract from the effort. I would use bball gun vs. 22 range activities that also graduate the hardware with the age group. I think that it does not in any way diminish the efforts of participants, and should anyone REALLY have an issue, remind them that the ORIGINAL cars were, in fact, precut to begin with...DUH

=)

[GravityRacer]

Good call, P529! I was at a race where one of the guys laminated a walnut piece in between the pine pieces to make the thickest racing stripe you ever saw. Now, some people complained that that walnut wood couldn't have possibly been in the kit, but I pointed out that there is NO way that slice of wood could possibly make the car faster. That settled the complaint. the guy didn't win any races, anyway, so it worked out. It was a nice looking car, though.

To all, generically, and on topic- I think that if the Pinecar hubcaps fall off, that is the nature of the beast. If it happened during a race, toughski bounski. I prefer running a "pure" race, anyway, but if someone showed up with a Pinecar, knowing what I know now, (and I hadn't excluded it in the rules) I'd let him run. All in all, there are few advantages between manufacturers. Possible exception- the Awana axles and wheels are better, I hear. And I'd like to use those spoked wheels, they are just too cool.

[ohiofitter]

I think pre cut cars should be allowed..............For as long as the BSA wheels and axles are use..........There are dads out there that just don't have the know how and the tools to build a car with there kids........as long as it's not a ebay car I think it all good

[dstory]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "pre-cut car". If it is just a wedge or something like that, then I agree. But some of them are substantially more sophisticated than a wedge. Two things I don't like about that scenario:

1- The point is in the process, not just the product.
2- The potential for a kid to spend a lot of time working on the car to be beat out by a kid that buys a pre-cut car. Doesn't seem quite right. Effort should count for something, no?

Just musing.

don

[gpraceman]

Pre-cuts don't give me too much heartburn, unless they are given a design award. It turned my stomach to find out after our last district race that a car that got a design trophy turned out to be a pre-cut.

Scenarios like single mom and dad all thumbs with tools is where I think these are a viable option. Though, it would be better for the organization putting on the race to come alongside those folks and help out with construction tips, access to tools and the people that know how to use them. Unfortunately, that is where many organizations fall on their face. They don't provide construction workshops and/or don't seek out those that need the help.

[mbb]

One year my son built a great car, did well in races, lots of sanding, painted it great, made decals on computer and put them on it, etc.

And he told me.. he didnt feel like it was his car because he didnt cut it out of the block.

He sketched it on the side of the block and I cut it on a bandsaw at work.

He did everything else, but it wasnt good enough to make it seem like his car to him.

After that, I had to buy the scrollsaw.

[bad_karma_2805a1]

DON'T DO IT!

Take some advice from me, I am the Chairman of my Pack's PWD Committee and opening up the race to non-BSA approved cars totally screws things up.

Read my post about BSA vs. PinePro and you will see what I mean. Just when I thought we had it all hammered out, a parent complains half way through our race and causes more havoc.

Stick to BSA for your Scouts and add an Open Race to let the cool kits race. I made a mistake of letting my Wolf pick a kit this year...you don't want to deal with the effects of a heart broken kid when his wicked fast car gets black balled and he doesn't win anything.