Allow PineCar Kits or Not Next Year?

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RaceFan
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Allow PineCar Kits or Not Next Year?

Post by RaceFan »

This year we were very conservative and used only BSA kits, wheels, axles. Since our district rules had the line "no hobby store pre-cut kits allowed..." (assuming they're referring to PineCar) in their rules, our pack adopted the same rules.

Next year (2008), I'd like to be able to inclued kits like this:
Image

Those kits look like the child could do almost all the work themselves, which is the idea, isn't it?

Since I've got to get out the coping saw myself (my boy cannot do that), he ends up with a "pre-cut" body anyway!

What is the harm? What do you think? Thanks. Just considering things for next year.

Oh yes, we would all use BSA wheels & axles so that part would be equal.
Last edited by RaceFan on Sat Mar 31, 2007 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Allow PineCar Kits or Not Next Year?

Post by Stan Pope »

RaceFan wrote:Since I've got to get out the coping saw myself (my boy cannot do that), he ends up with a "pre-cut" body anyway!
Hmmm ... Most boys of Cub Scout age should be able to do at least part of that copins saw process. Don't sell him short. (But, please ignore my "outburst" if there are special curcumstances.)
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Re: Allow PineCar Kits or Not Next Year?

Post by Darin McGrew »

FWIW, we give the younger kids (2nd grade and under) pre-cut blocks. One of the men in our church takes a bunch of CSB's standard kits, sets up a few jigs on his table saw, and cuts several each of a few basic shapes. They're free to have us recut these blocks at a workshop, or even to ask for a standard uncut block, although few do.

The older kids (3rd grade and over) start with the standard uncut block, but we've got plenty of workshops with adults manning the band saws.

Technically, we require them to use the block in the kit, but we don't worry too much about which block they use. We do enforce that they use our standard wheels and axles, and that they use a block of wood for the car's basic structure.
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Re: Allow PineCar Kits or Not Next Year?

Post by RaceFan »

Yes, I feel like a heretic suggesting we allow PineCar kits but they are very well made kits.

It's just something we're batting around & just need to hear the pros & cons. Any input is appreciated, thanks.
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Re: Allow PineCar Kits or Not Next Year?

Post by Bulldog »

So long as all specs are met- Min and max dimensions, wheelbase, etc, I see little harm in it- As long as the BSA wheels and axles are used- the pinecar wheels and axles are very different from their BSA counterparts.

But isn't using a pre-cut kit limiting the project, the creativity, and craftsmanship? You'll never be able to inspect for it, so I wouldn't try to prohibit it, but I wouldn't encourage it, either.
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Re: Allow PineCar Kits or Not Next Year?

Post by Nitro Dan »

I picked up a few of the pre-cut PineCar bodies on Ebay this past fall. Out of the few I purchased, I found that none of the slots were consistent in their spacing. I had one that was off from the BSA standards by as much as 3/16 inch.

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Re: Allow PineCar Kits or Not Next Year?

Post by RaceFan »

Keep the opinions and input coming guys, I appreciate it. If the PineCar kits are a bad idea, we won't do it. If they get the kids involved, we'll do it. Maybe we could allow it for siblings, only or something, I don't know yet...

So far:

Pros:

Aside from BSA wheel & axle prep, the whole car can be built by the child with minimal supervision. No more "Dad made the whole car". (I usually unintentionally do too much every year :oops: )

The kit comes with everything needed to complete the project.

The end result looks pretty good.

Cons:

Limits creativity in the shape of the car (although the boy can choose different colors & decals to make his car unique)

Variances in the axle slots with certain kits.

The boys don't get the experience with the coping saw or other power tools.
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Re: Allow PineCar Kits or Not Next Year?

Post by doct1010 »

IMO, it not only limits creativity, there is no real pride of ownership. No direct hand in the creation or design. Most important you limit the single most essential element, the parent/child team working together and learning in process. Now, will a young cub think its cool after they slap on the decals and such? Probably. Will a time stressed parent? Probably. Is it a better looking car than most can muster? Probably. Will it perform as well as competition? Probably not.

In our pack we do not allow pre cut kits.
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Re: Allow PineCar Kits or Not Next Year?

Post by Bulldog »

doct1010 wrote:In our pack we do not allow pre cut kits.

How do you enforce that rule? How do you inspect for it?
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Re: Allow PineCar Kits or Not Next Year?

Post by gpraceman »

RaceFan wrote:Pros:

Aside from BSA wheel & axle prep, the whole car can be built by the child with minimal supervision. No more "Dad made the whole car". (I usually unintentionally do too much every year :oops: )

The kit comes with everything needed to complete the project.

The end result looks pretty good.

Cons:

Limits creativity in the shape of the car (although the boy can choose different colors & decals to make his car unique)

Variances in the axle slots with certain kits.

The boys don't get the experience with the coping saw or other power tools.
The wheels and axles are not BSA, so you should think about prohibiting them. The axles are one piece, not individual nails for each wheel. They use caps to hold the wheels on. The caps often pop off and are not so easy to find. IMO, if it is a BSA race for the kids, you should use BSA wheels and axles to give everyone an even playing field (not that I really like the BSA axles -- which I don't).
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Re: Allow PineCar Kits or Not Next Year?

Post by doct1010 »

Bulldog wrote:
doct1010 wrote:In our pack we do not allow pre cut kits.

How do you enforce that rule? How do you inspect for it?
First and foremost, it is clearly written in the rules. (PineCar kits are easy to spot due to wheels and axles.) We hold build workshops which most, but not all attend. Individual dens build as group, which helps to insure kits are not used. In reality, it's a judgement call on my part. I have not DQ'ed anyone although I have suspected a kit or two. I asked the suspect scout (as we do all entrants at reg.) if his car was "made from the kit supplied" as the rules stipulate, he hesitated looked at Dad and nodded yes. I allowed it, my better judgement said avoid race day drama at all cost. Scout did not race following year for some unknown reason. We simply STRONGLY encourage the scout/parent team to "do their best" regardless of tool or skill limitations. We always offer help to those who ask or are in need.

The enforceability is limited and dependent on honesty and integrity. The other mechanism we have in place help, but certainly not fool proof.
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Re: Allow PineCar Kits or Not Next Year?

Post by RaceFan »

I am contemplating allowing the PineCar kits (bodies, side pieces, assembly kits, etc.)

I am aware we'd have to use BSA wheels & axles. We would not, under any circumstances, use the pinecar solid axle & wheels.

We're only considering allowing the bodies.

The main advantage is that it's something the boy can build without Dad getting in there and doing the whole thing. We're just considering it...
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Re: Allow PineCar Kits or Not Next Year?

Post by doct1010 »

RaceFan wrote: The main advantage is that it's something the boy can build without Dad getting in there and doing the whole thing. We're just considering it...
It appears your primary motivation is limiting parental involvement. IMO, you should encourage it! I realize you want to keep Dad "from doing it all". Again, imo there are better ways to accomplish same ends without use of kits.
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Re: Allow PineCar Kits or Not Next Year?

Post by gpraceman »

The other thing about using any old block, is if you have a restriction on the wheelbase. Our district restricts the wheelbase to that of the BSA block (~4-3/8"), so our pack reflects that rule. Though, it is allowable to drill holes as opposed to using the slots since the slots are not always straight.
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Re: Allow PineCar Kits or Not Next Year?

Post by Go Bubba Go »

RaceFan wrote:We're only considering allowing the bodies.

The main advantage is that it's something the boy can build without Dad getting in there and doing the whole thing. We're just considering it...
Not sure allowing kits really helps with the "Dad getting in there and doing the whole thing" issue.

Even if Dad were the one that would be doing all the cutting, I would still rather hear this:

"OK, Johnny. What would YOU like the car to look like? Would you prefer a sports car, a truck, an action figure, a Hot Dog, what do you think would look the coolest?"

than this:

"Which of these 3 kits would you like me to buy you".

IMO pre-cuts really take a chunk out of the whole issue of pride of ownership and creativity.

I really appreciate the degree to which the boys personalize these cars and the tremendous variation in their designs. Allowing kits IMO just provides an "easy out" for those that don't want to take the mental effort (or allow the boys the opportunity, really) to do so.

If you have parents that don't have access to tools, offer workshops or offer (I have done this on occasion) to cut the block for them yourself. But do it with them both standing there (safely dressed), encourage the boy's input, take the opportunity to teach him how to do what you're doing (for next year) while you have his attention and try to personalize his car just for him. And in the meantime you get to spend some time with another parent and boy from your Pack.

Note that one of my approaches has been to make a first cut (reduce thick block to thin block via band saw) myself, then let the boy "have at it" with a coping saw with the thinner block. Much more manageable for them.
Last edited by Go Bubba Go on Mon Apr 02, 2007 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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