District PWD in Fall, invite Web 2s that have bridged????
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District PWD in Fall, invite Web 2s that have bridged????
Due to scheduling issues this Spring, our 2007 District Pinewood Derby is not being held until September. We will be including some exhibition races for the local car dealerships (for a fee to raise money) and perhaps some fun races for Cub Scout recruits to get them interested in joining. In interests of saving time, and the fact that this is a Cub Scout event, we are considering not inviting the Webelos 2, since they all have bridged already and will be busy doing Boy Scout stuff. I have mixed emotions on this and don't want to make a rash decision without having some input. What is the group consensus?
Let me make the disclaimer that I am the new District PWD Chair and am leaning against inviting them for the reasons of less time required for an already-long day, less races/cars mean less of a chance of something going wrong, less cost for trophies (an issue with our District), and the above mentioned reason (Cub Scout event and the bridged Webelos 2 are now Boy Scouts).
Thanks!!!
Dave
Let me make the disclaimer that I am the new District PWD Chair and am leaning against inviting them for the reasons of less time required for an already-long day, less races/cars mean less of a chance of something going wrong, less cost for trophies (an issue with our District), and the above mentioned reason (Cub Scout event and the bridged Webelos 2 are now Boy Scouts).
Thanks!!!
Dave
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Re: District PWD in Fall, invite Web 2s that have bridged???
I would say invite them. You will find that you will not have that many show up anyways, especially if it isn't until the fall.
Last edited by gpraceman on Mon Apr 02, 2007 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Randy Lisano
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- Stan Pope
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Re: District PWD in Fall, invite Web 2s that have bridged???
An important bit of info was omitted:
Do participants qualify in pack races to race in the district race?
Or, is district participation open to all?
If the boys qualified in pack races, then they really should be invited to compete in the district race.
If the participation is open to all, then I have no strong opinion either way, although I'd be inclined to say that it is "an independent Cub Scout event."
Do participants qualify in pack races to race in the district race?
Or, is district participation open to all?
If the boys qualified in pack races, then they really should be invited to compete in the district race.
If the participation is open to all, then I have no strong opinion either way, although I'd be inclined to say that it is "an independent Cub Scout event."
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
Re: District PWD in Fall, invite Web 2s that have bridged???
Would you have invited them if the event was being held in the spring?
Let that be a huge factor in determining if you invite them now.
No reason to exclude them if it's not their fault the race date had to be moved.
I know that my son will want to participate in the derby as a Webelos 2 - he loves the racing. Our area allows them to race.
Just my opinion.
Let that be a huge factor in determining if you invite them now.
No reason to exclude them if it's not their fault the race date had to be moved.
I know that my son will want to participate in the derby as a Webelos 2 - he loves the racing. Our area allows them to race.
Just my opinion.
- PWD_addict
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Re: District PWD in Fall, invite Web 2s that have bridged???
Stan--
Yes, the boys must qualify in Pack races to be invited. I guess that's one strike against not inviting them.
Psycaz--
Historically, the Webe 2s were not invited even when it was in the Spring. That created some bad feelings since the boys still felt like Cub Scouts in a Boy Scout uniform.
To make matters a little worse, in previous years, only one Cub per pack (overall winner) was invited to District. If that overall winner happened to be a Webe 2 that had bridged, they weren't allowed. I assume they let the top-finishing non-Webe 2 from each Pack race. That definitely seems wrong.
Randy--
I suspect you are correct in that not too many would show up. We have an 8-lane track that we'll be using so if only two show up, we'd still have eight races. We have 22 packs in our District, so there's a possibility of 22 showing up.
Which reminds me that one thing I didn't mention is that many Packs in our District don't have Pack races until after the Webelos 2 have bridged, so there isn't a Webelos 2 race in many Packs at all.
Yes, the boys must qualify in Pack races to be invited. I guess that's one strike against not inviting them.
Psycaz--
Historically, the Webe 2s were not invited even when it was in the Spring. That created some bad feelings since the boys still felt like Cub Scouts in a Boy Scout uniform.
To make matters a little worse, in previous years, only one Cub per pack (overall winner) was invited to District. If that overall winner happened to be a Webe 2 that had bridged, they weren't allowed. I assume they let the top-finishing non-Webe 2 from each Pack race. That definitely seems wrong.
Randy--
I suspect you are correct in that not too many would show up. We have an 8-lane track that we'll be using so if only two show up, we'd still have eight races. We have 22 packs in our District, so there's a possibility of 22 showing up.
Which reminds me that one thing I didn't mention is that many Packs in our District don't have Pack races until after the Webelos 2 have bridged, so there isn't a Webelos 2 race in many Packs at all.
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Re: District PWD in Fall, invite Web 2s that have bridged???
Especially since they had to earn the invitation, I would say to include them in the invitations.
If they are not interested in attending, that is their choice.
Bear in mind that this does strike a bit of a nerve with me. I have never appreciated people I don't really (or at all) know deciding things for me on their own, and then telling me why they didn't think they needed to ask my opinion about a decision that directly affects me (or my family).
If there was no precedent for inviting them and that didn't cause any hard feelings, that would be different. But if you have done it in the past (or it has been a sore spot in the past) and you are contemplating changing it without asking those most directly affected, that wouldn't be very considerate IMO.
You could at least offer them your thoughts in the terms of a "if you want to do it, here's the support I need from you" fashion. If they are not committed enough to help pull it off, then again they have decided for themselves and you at least did them the courtesy of providing them the opportunity to decide for themselves.
If they are not interested in attending, that is their choice.
Bear in mind that this does strike a bit of a nerve with me. I have never appreciated people I don't really (or at all) know deciding things for me on their own, and then telling me why they didn't think they needed to ask my opinion about a decision that directly affects me (or my family).
If there was no precedent for inviting them and that didn't cause any hard feelings, that would be different. But if you have done it in the past (or it has been a sore spot in the past) and you are contemplating changing it without asking those most directly affected, that wouldn't be very considerate IMO.
You could at least offer them your thoughts in the terms of a "if you want to do it, here's the support I need from you" fashion. If they are not committed enough to help pull it off, then again they have decided for themselves and you at least did them the courtesy of providing them the opportunity to decide for themselves.
"Who's Grandpa's neighbor?"... Phil Davis, Down and Derby
Re: District PWD in Fall, invite Web 2s that have bridged???
Our boys bridge in February, before we hold our derby, so they don't even get to race in the pack derby.
But, IMO, if these boys raced in the pack derby, and qualified for district as a result, then heck yeah, I say invite them!
But, IMO, if these boys raced in the pack derby, and qualified for district as a result, then heck yeah, I say invite them!
Re: District PWD in Fall, invite Web 2s that have bridged???
PWD_addict
I guess if the precedent is that they can't race, then you have cause to not let them.
Rereading your original post, it sounds like your district considers them boy scouts as soon as they cross and only cub scouts can race. No excepts made even if the webelos 2 had won their pack.
I like the suggestion of seeing what support you might get to include them.
I never like the idea of excluding anyone. Especially if its just because of when the race is ran. To me PWD is one of the big events for the scouts and to exclude the webelos2 just because they cross before the race is scheduled doesn't seem right.
As I said to someone locally who's area does the same thing: What about the scout who isn't going on to boy scouting. He doesn't cross as he is not going on. He can't seem to race as the webelos 2 are excluded. You're shutting him out. That and with a lot of groups around here crossing over in Feb, they only really have 4 months to be a webelos 2 and here a lot of the fun stuff happens after Feb. It hurts no one to let them partake of the fun events that the scouts are doing.
Let them have the best of both worlds.
I guess if the precedent is that they can't race, then you have cause to not let them.
Rereading your original post, it sounds like your district considers them boy scouts as soon as they cross and only cub scouts can race. No excepts made even if the webelos 2 had won their pack.
I like the suggestion of seeing what support you might get to include them.
I never like the idea of excluding anyone. Especially if its just because of when the race is ran. To me PWD is one of the big events for the scouts and to exclude the webelos2 just because they cross before the race is scheduled doesn't seem right.
As I said to someone locally who's area does the same thing: What about the scout who isn't going on to boy scouting. He doesn't cross as he is not going on. He can't seem to race as the webelos 2 are excluded. You're shutting him out. That and with a lot of groups around here crossing over in Feb, they only really have 4 months to be a webelos 2 and here a lot of the fun stuff happens after Feb. It hurts no one to let them partake of the fun events that the scouts are doing.
Let them have the best of both worlds.
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Re: District PWD in Fall, invite Web 2s that have bridged???
I would say that relationship is the definitive strike because it links the pack and district races.PWD_addict wrote:Stan--
Yes, the boys must qualify in Pack races to be invited. I guess that's one strike against not inviting them.
Now, if you were to start out the year giving packs guidance that there will be no 2nd year Webelos racing at district so don't try to qualify a 2nd year Webelos during pack races, and follow it up with a recommendation that the packs can avoid disappointments by holding the race after crossover (for those joining a troop) / graduation (for those completing their Scouting experience with Webelos.) Graduation / crossover should coincide, since the bulk of the den is gone with crossover!
Stan
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Re: District PWD in Fall, invite Web 2s that have bridged???
This is a little more of the history.
In previous years, only the single boy who was fastest in the Pack would be invited to District. If it happened to be a Webelos 2, he wouldn't be allowed (not sure why--I don't even know who enforced the rule in previous years). The District races were all arranged through Council with local car dealerships so it was a "top-down" arrangement. Perhaps Council is the one that made up the rule. Good or bad, that is the precedent.
Enter 2007, when Council (for some reason) doesn't arrange a Pinewood Derby with the local car dealerships and doesn't schedule a Council Derby at all. So, it is left up to the individual Districts to run their own Derby. In January, 2007, my son won our Pack Derby and was told that he'd represent the Pack at the District races. Not seeing the District race scheduled anywhere, I finally make it to a Roundtable to ask the DE what is going on. He explains the Council thing with the previous years and tells me that they really didn't have anyone to put one together this year. So, I ended up volunteering to Chair the District Derby.
Now, given the precedent above, it is seemingly up to me as to who should be invited to the District Derby. So, no one except for the overall Pack winners should expect to be invited, based on previous years' precedence. And, if the Pack winners were Webelos 2, they would not have been invited in previous years anyway. My original plan (changed based on response here) was to invite the individual rank winners from each Pack (Tiger through Webe 1), regardless of who won overall in the Pack. I'm not sure how many people knew about the "No Webe 2" rule since they would only know about it if a Webe 2 won the Pack race and they went to register them for District races. We don't have any published rules (yet) in our District.
Does that change anyone's opinion? Whatever gets decided this year will become the new precedent and should be followed in upcoming years.
I have told the DE that I want to invite the Webelos 2s as well and have asked if he (and another volunteer on the committee) saw any problems with that. I'll let you know if they take issue.
In previous years, only the single boy who was fastest in the Pack would be invited to District. If it happened to be a Webelos 2, he wouldn't be allowed (not sure why--I don't even know who enforced the rule in previous years). The District races were all arranged through Council with local car dealerships so it was a "top-down" arrangement. Perhaps Council is the one that made up the rule. Good or bad, that is the precedent.
Enter 2007, when Council (for some reason) doesn't arrange a Pinewood Derby with the local car dealerships and doesn't schedule a Council Derby at all. So, it is left up to the individual Districts to run their own Derby. In January, 2007, my son won our Pack Derby and was told that he'd represent the Pack at the District races. Not seeing the District race scheduled anywhere, I finally make it to a Roundtable to ask the DE what is going on. He explains the Council thing with the previous years and tells me that they really didn't have anyone to put one together this year. So, I ended up volunteering to Chair the District Derby.
Now, given the precedent above, it is seemingly up to me as to who should be invited to the District Derby. So, no one except for the overall Pack winners should expect to be invited, based on previous years' precedence. And, if the Pack winners were Webelos 2, they would not have been invited in previous years anyway. My original plan (changed based on response here) was to invite the individual rank winners from each Pack (Tiger through Webe 1), regardless of who won overall in the Pack. I'm not sure how many people knew about the "No Webe 2" rule since they would only know about it if a Webe 2 won the Pack race and they went to register them for District races. We don't have any published rules (yet) in our District.
Does that change anyone's opinion? Whatever gets decided this year will become the new precedent and should be followed in upcoming years.
I have told the DE that I want to invite the Webelos 2s as well and have asked if he (and another volunteer on the committee) saw any problems with that. I'll let you know if they take issue.
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Re: District PWD in Fall, invite Web 2s that have bridged???
If it is your intention to continue with district races, inviting more participants than the council races, then you may make up the rules without concern for the council race precedent. (One racer per pack is just too elitist... you need to haver 10 or 20 coming from each!) This would be especially appropriate if the district races were held before crossover!
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
Re: District PWD in Fall, invite Web 2s that have bridged???
Ha Ha Pwd_Addict....
This story is eerily similar to mine a few years back. After winning the pack and no district race our first year, I went to a Roundtable to find out what was going on only to be made the derby chairman.
The ball is in your court. Your the chairman. Forget the past. Open it up to more scouts. The more scouts the better. Appearently the past presedence was to invite only the top overall winner. I opened it up to the first and second place for each rank, except we combine Webelos I and II. 8 races per pack are allowed. Plus, believe it or not, we have a Lions rank which is for Kindergarten. We have a seperate race for them, winners do not advance, they only race against the other Lions. But for the other ranks, the winners go on to the finals.
We do allow Webelos II who have crossed over to compete. Our district derby is late compated to the other councils in our area. Its on April 21st this year. Some packs have yet to have their pack race while some had it in January. I think you will be surprised to see that if a Webelos II won, he will likely want to see how good it can be at the district event, boy scout or not. Let them race, afterall, they earned it.
This story is eerily similar to mine a few years back. After winning the pack and no district race our first year, I went to a Roundtable to find out what was going on only to be made the derby chairman.
The ball is in your court. Your the chairman. Forget the past. Open it up to more scouts. The more scouts the better. Appearently the past presedence was to invite only the top overall winner. I opened it up to the first and second place for each rank, except we combine Webelos I and II. 8 races per pack are allowed. Plus, believe it or not, we have a Lions rank which is for Kindergarten. We have a seperate race for them, winners do not advance, they only race against the other Lions. But for the other ranks, the winners go on to the finals.
We do allow Webelos II who have crossed over to compete. Our district derby is late compated to the other councils in our area. Its on April 21st this year. Some packs have yet to have their pack race while some had it in January. I think you will be surprised to see that if a Webelos II won, he will likely want to see how good it can be at the district event, boy scout or not. Let them race, afterall, they earned it.
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Re: District PWD in Fall, invite Web 2s that have bridged???
One of the privileges of taking on that responsibility is the ability to influence issues like this. In general, I like to see more invitees than most organizations currently have. You will have to draft the needed support, of course.PWD_addict wrote:...given the precedent above, it is seemingly up to me as to who should be invited to the District Derby.
...Whatever gets decided this year will become the new precedent and should be followed in upcoming years.
If you believe your decision this year will be a strong precedent, then think it through thoroughly. My observation, though, is that you will have some flexibility during year 2 to play the "what I learned during my first year" car to recommend additional changes as needed.
"Who's Grandpa's neighbor?"... Phil Davis, Down and Derby
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Re: District PWD in Fall, invite Web 2s that have bridged???
Eerily similar to mine as well, although I am only Chairman at the Pack level and a Track Official for the Council races.PineNut wrote:Ha Ha Pwd_Addict....
This story is eerily similar to mine a few years back. After winning the pack and no district race our first year, I went to a Roundtable to find out what was going on only to be made the derby chairman.
I agree. Seek to expand, within your ability to pull it off.PineNut wrote:The ball is in your court. Your the chairman. Forget the past. Open it up to more scouts. The more scouts the better.
Believe it or not, we have a Lions rank which is for Kindergarten. We have a separate race for them, winners do not advance, they only race against the other Lions.
The Lions race idea is a cool one. Largely Dad built cars at that level, but it would be fun to give the little ones their own "race".
Couldn't agree more. I also like the visual reminder of the continuity between the Cub Scout and Boy Scout programs. The Webelo IIs need a important recognition of their cross over, but it should be a cross over and not a cross off or cross out.PineNut wrote:We do allow Webelos II who have crossed over to compete.
Let them race, afterall, they earned it.
"Who's Grandpa's neighbor?"... Phil Davis, Down and Derby
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Re: District PWD in Fall, invite Web 2s that have bridged???
Good news. At the District Committee meeting tonight, no one knew why Webe 2s were excluded in the past and no one had any issue with inviting them to District this year!!
Thanks for the input. You helped changed my mind and the Scheduling thread helped me realize that it can easily be done (thanks Stan).
Thanks for the input. You helped changed my mind and the Scheduling thread helped me realize that it can easily be done (thanks Stan).