Extended Wheelbase

[tjoneill]

Hello all-
Glad to be a new member of this forum.

We just had our District race, and a minor controversy developed which I found out about after the race. During check-in, the Boy Scouts who were doing the pre-race inspections told anyone who had an extended wheelbase that they can run in the race, but cannot win if they finish in first, second, or third place. Several kids were upset at this, and my son's car, which also had and extended wheelbase that was not flagged during the pre-race inspection won first place in his rank. I didn't find out about this until the end of the day as our Pack was running one of the two tracks at this event, but it still bothers me.

I discussed this with race officials and pointed out that our district's published rules and the rules that come with the car do not expressly prohibit extended wheelbases. They say only the official Kit can be used, and that only the wheels and axles furnished with the kit are permissible with no shaping other than burr removal permitted. There are specifications only for overall length, width, and maximum weight.

IMHO, this is a pretty gray area and in these circumstances I try to land on the permissive side. Our pack permits extended wheelbases in our pack race as this is not expressly prohibited by any rule I am aware of, and adds to creativity and style. I can't think of any reason why an extended wheelbase should be prohibited, but that's just my opinion.

Our District Exec said the "official" BSA rules prohibit extended wheelbases, to which I said then my son's first place finish should be disqualified. He thought the difference must have been slight as the car was not flagged, but it is a significant difference that the judges apparently missed. I wouldn't want to go back to any kid after he was awarded a trophy and tell him to give it back.

I would like to hear the sage opinions of this group on this topic, or maybe this has been thrashed out before and there is some info elsewhere-when I searched extended wheelbase I didn't get much back.
Thanks,

Tim O'Neill
Cubmaster
Pack 48, Aurora MO

[doct1010]

Tim,
Welcome aboard. There are several threads, some fairly recent, on rules violation and interpretation.

I agree with you, the rules in the box are most liberal. No specific mention of wheelbase. Some local rules stipulate the slots must be used, others allow moving as long as original wheelbase is maintained.

[psycaz]

You cold start by asking him to discuss the wording that relates to extended wheelbases being illegal. Just use the idea of: " just so I know what wording you're looking at and then I can explain it to others. I can say this is how it was explained to me."

Try to reason with them as to why you see it not regulating wheelbases. Shouldn't be too hard as I've never seen anything that relates to wheelbase in those rules.

[Mr. Slick]

Ask/suggest that your DE show you where the "Official" BSA rules are and then where in those rules is anything about the length of the wheel base. (If he can do this, PLEASE share it with the rest of us. . . )

The latest BSA "blessed" book highly recommends the extended wheel base!

[moderator cut - no racing league discussions]

District rules should be very comprehensive and address significant issues like this.

Our district rules for 2007: http://www.PwdRacing.com/cbd_rules_2007.html

[Stan Pope]

Ask/suggest that your DE show you where the "Official" BSA rules are and then where in those rules is anything about the length of the wheel base. (If he can do this, PLEASE share it with the rest of us. . . )

Yes!!!

The latest BSA "blessed" book highly recommends the extended wheel base!

If you refer to the Meade book "Pinewood Derby Speed Secrets", the word "blessed" might be a bit strong. It is sold in our Scout shop, but I think that it should not be considered as definitive on BSA rules intent ... for instance, it touts "V" wheel treads!

[Bulldog]

Rules interperetation is one of those things that drives me nuts. The rules need to be clear, and all packs within a district need to adopt the same rules with respect to car specifications. If this is done correctly, very few DQs and hard feelings should occur. Perhaps you can use this experience to improve things for next year.

[Go Bubba Go]

As far as your own boy goes, I would be careful not to give him the impression that he did anything wrong at all. It sounds as if the "new" prohibition was not clearly stated, and he (and others) followed the rules as they understood them. The fact that others were DQ'd in a fashion that sounds inappropriate, and yet somehow he was not, is not his fault.

Any reshuffling of trophies IMO would just cast an even darker shadow over this event. Even had another boy's car beaten your son's, but not "won" because of an inappropriate DQ, in a sense it's really not your place to override the award of the trophy as performed by the District. Even were you to ask the District about it and get them to agree to reassignment, that just opens up another can of messy worms with respect to the assignment of awards performed in the all other races.

There is a very real sense in which you simply can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, so to speak.

I would follow up, though, with the District and Council leaders in an attempt to help prevent this sort of recurrence in the future. These sorts of controversies do not serve the boys well at all.

[tjoneill]

Thanks everyone for the comments.

I was already planning on working with the District on getting the rules clarified for next year, and thank everyone for the examples.

I also agree that the deed is done. I would not support any post race disqualifications or trophy swaps--we did what we did within the rules as they were presented, but is still bothers me that some kids were disqualified by arbitrary judging. It also disturbed me when I heard one of the Scout judges actually boast about making a kid cry, but I should add that he was only doing what he was told to do as a judge.

The best thing here is to clarify the rule on wheelbase, although I will still advocate letting the kids put the wheels wherever they want.
Thanks again

Tim O'Neill

[gpraceman]

It also disturbed me when I heard one of the Scout judges actually boast about making a kid cry, but I should add that he was only doing what he was told to do as a judge.

I am really surprised that check-in judges would be Boy Scouts. IMO, they should not be put in that position. That should be left to a responsible adult(s), expecially since issues of disqualification can subject the check-in judges to the ire of the parents. It seems these particular scouts (at least one of them) did not have the needed maturity level.

[Go Bubba Go]

I am really surprised that check-in judges would be Boy Scouts. IMO, they should not be put in that position. That should be left to a responsible adult(s), expecially since issues of disqualification can subject the check-in judges to the ire of the parents. It seems these particular scouts (at least one of them) did not have the needed maturity level.

I certainly agree with that, esp. if they were not subject to very immediate oversight.

There is potential for abuse of the Cubs in terms of a judge that does not deal maturely and compassionately with a DQ issue.
There is potential for abuse of a judge by the parents when they are confronted with a DQ issue the parent doesn't "want to hear".

Both of these issues require a judge that is not only knowledgeable, but wise in his handling of the Cubs and in his response to the parents. Not many Boy Scouts will have that level of wisdom or maturity.

And frankly, IMO, there are a lot of Boy Scouts that don't have the depth of understanding of the rules to perform a good inspection by themselves. There should be a knowledgeable adult (and hopefully a written inspection procedure like Stan's) to guide any Boy Scout that is allowed to perform this important task.

[Stan Pope]

The basic idea of using older Boy Scouts to participate in inspection is not that far out. It is completely consistent with BSA ideals. It does need to be managed well. For instance, procedural training and reminders of the need for consistency are necessary. Secondly, the youthful inspector should be recording pass/fail recommendations for the scope of his inspection responsibility, but the final decision and communication should come from a seasoned adult at the end of the inspection line. The inspection chair (or a knowledgeable inspector, if the chair isn't) should watch the first few inspections in detail and "spot check" thereafter. A way to manage this is to have a "final inspection station" at the end of the line to review the results of inspections. That station can assure that the inspectors are doing a quality job and arrange for further training or replacement if an inspector needs it!

Fails situations should not hold up the "main inspection line." That should be a branch off the line. That is where the final "fail" decision and the communicaiton with driver and parents should occur.

[PineNut]

Defintely a sticky situation. If the rules are vauge, then it should be allowed (extended wheel base). Our district rules are rather lengthy to avoid such issues. Although, as detailed as they are, we have one issue we need to address before our race in a few weeks.

Further, the race officials put the scouts in even a deeper predicatment by flagging some cars with extended wheel base and not others, then even stipulating that the extended wheel base can't win.

We use the same rules at our pack as district and rules clearly state - no adjustment in wheel base, or movement of wheels. Slots must be used, yet one parent/scout showed up with a car that had a V-cut groove (also illegal) and extended wheel base. He said, "Fine, I don't want my boy to win, just let him race in a couple a races then we will call it quits." To which i had to say "No." I had to explain to him that if I allow him to race and its a fast car, it could knock off other legal cars in the process. He still didn't understand. We use raceview with a point system.

Sounds like your rules were not very clear and there were more than a few cars with extended wheel bases. Ask to be on the committee next year and define the rules.

Good luck

[MWdream]

Since most kids will not be extending the wheelbase it means they are at a big disadvantage to "parents" who do this to their kids cars.

This being the case I don't think it should be allowed. Have a mod class for parents to enter if they want to build these cars and run it with that class.

Standard axle slots should be the rule.

By the way, the rules don't say I can't strap a rocket engine to the top and fire it either, but I'm not going to do that.

[PWD_addict]

As stated, I agree that there was a mistake made. My suggestion is to try to get clarification from whomever enforces the rules as to where a problem is. When he can't really come up with it, volunteer to develop some rules for next year based on what you've learned from other Packs (here on this board).

Our District rules are here:

http://www.chesapeakedistrict.com/conte ... 0FINAL.pdf

[Darin McGrew]

Since most kids will not be extending the wheelbase it means they are at a big disadvantage to "parents" who do this to their kids cars.

This being the case I don't think it should be allowed.

Extending the wheelbase isn't that hard. It's certainly within the capabilities of the older kids, and within the capabilities of the younger kids with adult assistance. The necessary tools are available at all our workshops, so I see no reason to ban them.

Besides, it isn't that big an advantage. We've had standard-wheelbase cars beat extended-wheelbase cars. Performance depends on so many other things, and as Stan says, your performance is determined by what you do worst, not by what you do best.

But if extended wheelbases aren't part of the game for your derby, then go ahead and prohibit them. But if they aren't prohibited in the rules, then they shouldn't be disqualified at registration. That's where the problem was in the original post.

By the way, the rules don't say I can't strap a rocket engine to the top and fire it either, but I'm not going to do that.

FWIW, in our derby, as soon as you ignite the rocket engine, it becomes something other than weight or decoration, and violates our rules. Many derbies have an explicit "gravity powered" rule, and igniting the rocket engine would violate those rules too.