Scoring Method

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PackMan
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Scoring Method

Post by PackMan »

I'm running the Derby this year and my scorer is no longer available. Last year, my first at running the Derby, I was so involved with everything else I paid no attention to scoring. Now I'm wondering how it works.

We've got a wooden track with 6 lanes, one of which runs slow. Our Pack is small at 18 boys. Dens range from 4 to 6 boys. We've rented the gym for 5 hours and we have a small buffet before we start so figure 3 hours for racing and 1 for awards. In the past, we've given 1st to 3rd awards for each Den and same for Pack. We also have a bunch of misc. catagories so we can try and have every boy go home with a trophy. (Judges' Favorite, Best paint job, etc.)

What would be a good method for scoring? Need to keep it as simple as possible both for me and the new scorer. In your suggestions, please explain your terms. For ex., what the heck is quad elimination?

Thanks in advance.

Dennis
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gpraceman
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Re: Scoring Method

Post by gpraceman »

In terms of scoring, there is either times or points. Points being based on the finish order. With a 6 lane track, I assume you have a timer, so you have the option of scoring either way. There are arguments for and against either. Personally, I prefer times scoring. However, unless you feel that your start gate can open consistently every time (one that snaps open via spring or rubber band vs one that the gate opening speed is dependant on the start gate operator), then go with points.

In terms of scheduling methods, you have many more choices. Personally, I do not like elimination methods (single, double, and so on) due to fairness concerns. I recommend the Perfect-N type charts created by Stan Pope and Cory Young. Every racer will run in every lane of the track (everyone is at the same "bad lane" disadvantage) and will run the same number of times. They will also face a variety of opponents.

With only 18 racers and 3 hours of race time, you can fit in a ton of racing. You can run the boys down each lane two times easily and have time left over to run a finals round of the top cars, if you wish.
Randy Lisano
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Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
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Stan Pope
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Re: Scoring Method

Post by Stan Pope »

Randy and I will disagree about multiple elimination method "fairness", but our difference turns out to be how we define the terms. In our past discussions, Randy has included "accuracy" issens within the category of "fairness".

Regardless of the method that you plan to use, you should have a viable "Plan B" to deal with whatever problems crop up. This could include finish line equipment malfunction, computer malfunction (but finish line still shows info.), loss of power, ... Alternatives may include
1. cancelling the event totally
2. postponing the event to a later date
3. finishing the event with manual record keeping
4. finishing the event via a method that does not require electronics.

To me cancellation is a very last resort, applied if, for instance, an earthquake destroys the track(s) and most of the cars waiting to run on it.

If you are running a pack race, then postponing the event might be possible. If it is a district or council event, then postponing is really, really difficult.

If the computer is dead and can not be replaced and restarted within a short period of time, but heat results (times or places) can be read off of the finish line hardware manually, then you might have the alternative of finishing the event with manual record keeping ... providing you can get the status info for completed heats out of the computer!

If the computer is dead and you can't get heat info off the finish line hardware, then you need to use a method that works reliably and expeditiously with human judging and record keeping. This is where multiple elimination shines! The race can be rerun to completion with satisfactory accuracy even if you only have a few flashlights ... if you know how!!

If the event must "go regardless", then the event chairman should have a solid Plan B that he knows how to use, and no-chart multiple elimination should be in his toolbox!
Stan
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PackMan
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Re: Scoring Method

Post by PackMan »

Thanks for your replies so far.

Stan, your reference to a computer makes me chuckle. I guess I should have included in our track description that our finish positions are determined by a 45-50 yr. old device that uses an optical sensor to trip a relay. (I can hear them clicking occasionally.) It will determine 1st thru third. We have to paint the underside of the nose white for it to operate properly.

Dennis
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Stan Pope
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Re: Scoring Method

Post by Stan Pope »

PackMan wrote:Thanks for your replies so far.

Stan, your reference to a computer makes me chuckle. I guess I should have included in our track description that our finish positions are determined by a 45-50 yr. old device that uses an optical sensor to trip a relay. (I can hear them clicking occasionally.) It will determine 1st thru third. We have to paint the underside of the nose white for it to operate properly.

Dennis
That kind of setup (not quite that primitive ... it had a 4X4 matrix of LED's to show place by lane) is what motivated development my study of final standings methods and ultimately, with Cory Young, development of PPN. The scoring charts in the PPN Generator page arose from that early experience!

Every year, it was down to the wire as to whether the gear would work for another year. With some fiddlin' we got it through the races, though.

Ours was an sensor at the bottom of a 1/4"Dia hole illuminated from above by a normal 60 W lamp bulb. So, there was a medium sized penumbra associated with the cars as they passed over. Hopefully, nobody got cheated out of something that they deserved. We only had a few times when we could not call a clear winner of the races, and when that happened, we awarded duplicate trophies, e.g. 1st, 1st, 3rd instead of 1st, 2nd, 3rd.

Only one year did I have to fall back on multiple elimination.

Back to your situation ... I prefer to have heats running as frequently as possible. Which means that the bookkeeping time between heats has to be kept very short ... as short as the time it takes the next drivers to stage their cars at the starting gate and walk (not run) to the finish line. Manual recording of finish order can be done without slowing progress, but manual recording of finish times would be out of the question! For recording I liked to use transparencies on an overhead projector ... so that the drivers and other interested parties could check the work as we went along. :)
Stan
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pack529holycross
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Re: Scoring Method

Post by pack529holycross »

I too have a basic question without a basic answer:

Our Pack breakdown is as follows:

7 Tigers
18 Wolves ( 2 dens )
10 Bears
11 WEBELOS
12 WEBELOS II

unknown number of participating siblings ( lets say 10-15 )
unknown number of "outlaw" class cars ( lets say the same number 10-15 )

Thats 58 Scouts ( if 100% participation ) with an additional 20-30 non-scout participants.

Given that we have a 6lane 49ft BESTRACK, microwizard k3 and GPRM - what experience can I glean from the Gurus of the board as to scoring method / race schedule structure ? I suppose I am asking this - if you were going into an event with this number of participants and the equipment listed above, how would you structure the event?

Nicholas
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Go Bubba Go
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Re: Scoring Method

Post by Go Bubba Go »

Stan Pope wrote:If the event must "go regardless", then the event chairman should have a solid Plan B that he knows how to use, and no-chart multiple elimination should be in his toolbox!
Stan:

Sorry for the laziness / hurriedness on my part, but can you point me to a previous post or nice link for a setup like that using a 4 lane track?

Our Pack Breakdown is similar to the one listed above, but with the smallest group being 4 and the largest 14.

Bubba

p.s. We could always run the boys using just 3 lanes if necessary for "eye-balling" the finish placement. I would like to have a good "all manual" method in my back pocket, in case Mr. Murphy decides to rain on our parade big time.
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gpraceman
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Re: Scoring Method

Post by gpraceman »

Stan Pope wrote:If the event must "go regardless", then the event chairman should have a solid Plan B that he knows how to use, and no-chart multiple elimination should be in his toolbox!
I don't know that learning a whole new scheduling method is necessary as a Plan B.

With GPRM, prior to race day charts can be generated and printed out, based on differing numbers of racers (with the exception of Dynamic scheduling). If the computer somehow isn't working come race day, then use the appropriate chart(s) based on the number of racers that show up.

If there is no timer communication, but the computer and timer are working, results can be entered manually (use points scoring if timer only displays finish order).

If the timer is not working, then results can be manually entered based on the finish order. Since eye ball judging would be required, I would only run on 3 of the lanes.

If the timer konks out during the race, results can be entered manually, even if you have to switch to points scoring to finish the remaining heats. GPRM always records points and times, regardless of which scoring method is used to compute the final standings, so all previous heats will not need to be rerun.
Randy Lisano
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Stan Pope
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Re: Scoring Method

Post by Stan Pope »

gpraceman wrote:If the timer is not working, then results can be manually entered based on the finish order. Since eye ball judging would be required, I would only run on 3 of the lanes.

If the timer konks out during the race, results can be entered manually, even if you have to switch to points scoring to finish the remaining heats. GPRM always records points and times, regardless of which scoring method is used to compute the final standings, so all previous heats will not need to be rerun.
Changing from a 4 to 6 lane "timed race with heat points available" scoring to a 3 lane heat points with eyeball judging format mid-race sounds iffy ... the lane balance and opponent balance will be so "out of whack" that results accuracy would only be pretense! Throw in the limited accuracy of eyeball heat place determination, I just wouldn't try it that way.

And I would not sacrifice accuracy in determining overall winners just because the contingency has a low probability.

If the group has the capability and the inclination for racing by time, then that is the obvious first choice. If the group's best capability is to race by heat points, than that is a good choice, too, and can serve as a good plan B. But if the race must go regardless, then you should have an ultimate fall back plan, and no-chart multiple elimination is the best I've seen for running without mechanical / electronics support. It is easy to learn and run if the boys stage their own cars. It is a bit harder if it is all done by track staff but that can be organized also.
Stan
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