08-09 DRAFT of rulebook

[mbb]

why must something simple be made so difficult?

why must there be a "standard" at all, let anyone use any wheelbase they want.

shorter (i.e stock) isactually faster because it makes the transition faster, but is much more of an alignment challenge, most fast cars run the max possible wheelbase because alignment is easier / more stable and it works out better overall for them. Everyone that knows how to build a fast car knows this. It is not a secret.

Let knowledge and work play a part for a change.

fixing wheelbase also limits car designs.

whoever said that a single car must race progressively.? why cant the scout build a new one if he wants or make improvements at each step of way as competition increases and minor details become more important in separating winner from loser. This is about boys learning and having fun with their dads, and those that learn the most and work the hardest should be rewarded.

[pack529holycross]

I think you may have misread my interpretation... the short side slot is already 7/8 " from the end of the block... I am interpreting that measurement as a MAXIMUM spread point, and not an absolute axle location requirement.

additionally, the current rules decrease the consistency of cars by placing no spceifications on extended wheel bases other than to generally define them as anything other than using the provided slots. This inheerently allows for a broader individual interpretation

Your first rule - "If the pre-cut axle slots are used, the Derby Car is approved to Race. " only restricts wheelbase and does not restrict the placement of the rear axle slot relative to the end of the block. You might "infer" that it means that the axle slot has to be 7/8" or more from the rear - but that is not stated. In such a situation, a good builder would add material to the front and remove material from the rear in order to to move the axle as far to the rear as possible. If you want to restrict this solution - it needs to be stated.

Your second rule "If the pre-cut axle slots are not used...7/8" or greater from the the ends of the car body", restricts placement of the rear axle relative to the block, while allowing flexibility on wheelbase.

Therefore, this inconsistency allows a choice - weight placement versus wheelbase. It might be a good trade off - I don't know - it depends on the track.

if a person chose to add material to one end of the car and remove from the other end in order to change the relationship of the existing axle slots, then that is certainly thinking outside the box, and I don't think there would a particular reason to restrict that creative thinking. Certainly if the car fell within the maximum length restriction, a builder could choose to be creative with that technique.

In so far as the "short end" axle slot is at a location approximately 7/8 inch from THAT END, it remains a consistent benchmark for axle location since a car built without alteration to the axle slots will tend to have at least one axle at that distance from that end of the car, whether it is front or rear. I agree that the resulting variables for permutations are still high, but the "boundaries" are more clearly defined. Perhaps an additional addendum to the first descriptor that reads " using the existing axle slots still requires that there be a distance of at least 7/8 inch from either axle to that end of the car body"

[Nooby]

Then we choose to think outside of the box. 1/4" on the CM with no increase instability is to much to leave on the table.

Still, I don't think you have solved the problem. The longer wheelbase car with axles 7/8" from the rear should still perform better than using the slots at 7/8" from the rear.

I agree that a clear standard would be nice - but too many people disagree on what that standard should be.

[pack529holycross]

Here is an updated version of the original draft - leaner, meaner, and I think a better balance of restriction vs. creativity. Look forward to your comments

http://cfcbsa.futureeagles.com/docs/COU ... SFINAL.pdf

[TAL]

On page 10 in lubrication , I believe I would strike the words "white lube " due to the fact that it is NOT worth having or useing.

I would hate to see a kid go through all the trouble and reading and actually acheive building a competative car just to be taking out by the choice of lube reffered to in the rules/instructions.

It's kinda a trap.

Also in another topic , Will you be pulling axles to enforce No grooved axles?

[pack529holycross]

On page 10 in lubrication , I believe I would strike the words "white lube " due to the fact that it is NOT worth having or useing.

I would hate to see a kid go through all the trouble and reading and actually acheive building a competative car just to be taking out by the choice of lube reffered to in the rules/instructions.

It's kinda a trap.

Also in another topic , Will you be pulling axles to enforce No grooved axles?

Enforcement is one of those subjects that requires the most amount of forethought, and yet the highest propensity for coming across situations unique unto themselves. It is also that part of Pinewood Derby that, in THEORY, should simply be an afterthought. Unfortunately, we all know that is more of a goal than reality.

I would say the first priority of a Derby Chairman is to eliminate temptation through solid, consistent communication with all involved. We must give those who would consider circumventing the rules a moment of pause, and that device which is 100% successful every year is ever elusive to us all. There is a tight balance between inviting caution through deterrence and inviting creativity through clear boundaries. As I think more and more about Enforcement, I think more about encouraging the pursuit of LEGAL achievement and reward. This is one of those rare opportunities to TRY to instill the desire within these kids to WIN WITHIN (the rules).

So, to answer your question directly, I think there are very few appropriate deterrence techniques that do not jeopardize the integrity of the cars, and that could be a problem at the Pack Level when a car has it's axles pulled, incedental damage, and the car is still needed for District and Council.

I am sure that continuing discussion on this and many subjects within the near future.

Nicholas

[gpraceman]

So, to answer your question directly, I think there are very few appropriate deterrence techniques that do not jeopardize the integrity of the cars, and that could be a problem at the Pack Level when a car has it's axles pulled, incedental damage, and the car is still needed for District and Council.

So, really how good is a rule if it cannot be reasonbly enforced? By reasonably, I mean without possibly harming the car.

If it cannot be enforced then those that may deliberately cheat (or those that just neglect to read the rules) may get an advantage over those that stuck strictly to the rules. So, what is being gained by such a rule?

How are you going to test for nickel plated axles?

Are you going to weigh the wheels to make sure not over 3.3g each?

[3 Cub Dad]

Nicholas,

Overall, I think you've done a great job on putting together the complete package. It's a neat combination of rules and tips!

I'm currently battling the same issues of "if you can't check for it, how do you make a rule against it?"

The only real objection that I would have with any of the rules you have in the guide is the rule that "all four wheels MUST touch the track". The reality is that there are many, many, many more accidental 3 wheelers than intentional 3 wheelers! Also, if the car is truly built with a high degree of scout involvement, this probability increases exponentially! My serious recommendation is to state that "the car must have four wheels, with each wheel mounted vertically on the outside of the car with the front wheels opposite one another, and the rear wheels opposite one another, but not all four wheels are required to touch the track."

I'm fighting my own battles this year with a new, very young, district exec who doesn't think we need any rules other than what comes in the box! I had to take him several league cars showing razor wheels, 1g scout wheels, 3 wheel cars, etc.!!!

3cubdad

[gpraceman]

The reality is that there are many, many, many more accidental 3 wheelers than intentional 3 wheelers!

Another thing to consider on such a rule is that over the course of a race, a car that started out as 4 wheels touching may end up with only 3, due to handling and loading to the track. Then if the car wins and some dad notices that not all 4 are touching, then get prepared for some complaining! We had that issue with our rule that the wheels had to be flat to the track (not canted, but not all 4 had to touch) and ended up dropping that rule.

And as 3 Cub Dad points out, it is harder for a scout to build a car with all 4 wheels touching, which is also a good reason to change the rule.

[pack529holycross]

Just wanted to post the link to the WORD version of my working draft of this years rules for Central Florida Council PWD. Its a large file, but I wanted to make it available should anyone find any sections useful for their units.

Nicholas


http://gotvows.com/futureeagles/CFCRULES010109REV.docx