How to have a lot of races quickly ...

General race coordinator discussions.
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Stan Pope
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How to have a lot of races quickly ...

Post by Stan Pope »

CORRECTED: Monday morning at a more civil hour. See note at bottom.

Mr. Slick, Master Pine Head said,
If you have individual racers stage their cars plan on up to a minute per car per heat. This will allow the last person to stage their car to get around to be able to watch the race too!

Someday we might be able to figure out how to have a lot of races quickly without reducing the amount of racer involvement. . . . still looking for ideas on how to do this.
Here is an analysis and scheme that I worked out a couple years ago:

The primary limiting factor in race cycle time is the time spent staging the cars, running the heat, identifying the winners/scoring the heat, and removing the cars from the finish line. In fact, depending on how quickly the electronics allows the start gate to be closed, some or all of the last three steps can be overlapped with the staging of the next heat.

Timed and points racing racing schemes depend for accuracy on the cars running on the same track for every heat. Lane equity is a key to their accuracy and fairness.

Elimination racing with lane draw apportions lane inequity in a random (therefore, fair) manner and over a number of heats will average out small enough to have a small effect on accuracy. (This was born out in simulations of the several methods using stats for district-quality cars provided by folks here on DT and Cory Young's simulation software.) In other words, a single queue of racers can be served by multiple tracks without damaging either fairness or accuracy!

What kind of elimination race fits? 5+ loss no-chart elim on three lane tracks does the job. Three tracks will just about keep up with the pace that the lane draw can run. If you think your boys will be more meticulous in staging, then add a track or two! One team of officials manage the boys: Line 'em up and draw for heat and lane. (This sounds complicated, but is actually done rather easily with the heat participants being selected by lot from the next 5 racers in line.) The heat participants race on the next available track!

For 150 cars in a single class, 5 losss to elimination running mostly 3 at a time requires 408 contested heats with racers averaging 7.5 heats apiece. A small number, 19 exit after 5 heats with no heat wins at all. The rest get at least 6 heats and at least one heat win!

I target heat cycle times of 36 seconds (three lanes boys staging) but average of 60 seconds is more typical, i.e. each track runs 60 heats per hour. Spread across 4 tracks (240 heats per hour) the time to run 150 scout quintuple eliminations to completion is 1.7 hours.

(EDIT: I should not do detail work like this after 9 p.m. ... Not 1123 contested heats! 408! I pulled "contested heat" numbers out of the "contested run" column! It looked funny at the time, but couldn't see why. GIGO!

Toss in your own estimates for cycle time to scale the time to run.)
Last edited by Stan Pope on Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How to have a lot of races quickly ...

Post by Stan Pope »

The above concept assumes all entrants run in the same class. But, I think that time is still excessive. And if our district races only drew 150 racers, I'd be disappointed. 300 to 400 is more realistic, and all of those in a single class runs the time way up!

So, our racing has historically been classed by age, with 5 trophies awarded in each age group. Then a single trophy for the winner of the race among the 5 age group winners. This creates groups of 50 to 100 racers. 50 racers requires 147 contested heats and 100 racers requires 276 contested heats.

Racing by class allows the equipment to be deployed in different ways. We have traditionally set up 4 separate track areas, each serving one class at a time and staggering the start of racing on each. One track serves both 2nd year Webelos and Tigers. With the above approach, we could reallocate the track resources to two track areas each with two tracks and reduce the time spent by racers by 1/2 (each gets twice as many heats per hour spent) or allocate all four tracks to one area and reduce the time spent by racers to 1/4 (each racer gets four times as many heats per hour spent).

Here is a concrete example, assuming 100 racers per class and assuming the same 60 second per heat average.

1 track per class:
heats: 147
Heats per hour: 60
Time for class: 2-1/2 Hrs

2 tracks per class:
heats: 147
Heats per hour: 2X60 = 120
Time for class: 1-1/4 Hrs

The 12% of entrants who never win a heat (out after 5 rounds) are present for approximately 5/8 of the total heats. The finalists must be present for the entire time.
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Re: How to have a lot of races quickly ...

Post by mbb »

i sort of understand why some are concerned with time, but if time is a problem, borrow another track for running the ranks. Race the top 3 in each rank in the finals if you have 3 trophies to give, cause the 3 fastest could all be in 1 rank.

Thats how we do it, and let the boys race their cars, and dont put your time constraint on their day..
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Re: How to have a lot of races quickly ...

Post by pack529holycross »

mbb wrote:i sort of understand why some are concerned with time, but if time is a problem, borrow another track for running the ranks. Race the top 3 in each rank in the finals if you have 3 trophies to give, cause the 3 fastest could all be in 1 rank.

Thats how we do it, and let the boys race their cars, and dont put your time constraint on their day..
with respect, it would be the time constraints of parents, and not the coordinators, that determines the length of an event.. additionally, kids without food for more than 3-4 hours is not a responsible way to plan an activity. Therefore, it is a responsible thing to be ever aware of the length of events, as well as insuring that the event is FAIR - certainly I can envision enough scenarios where parents would be crying foul if one kid accidentally touched another kids car while staging or retrieving.

Finally, having 200 cars at an event without efficiency could lead to turnaround times of 2-3 minutes - thats 600 minutes or ten hours of racing... not what i consider a quality event in my opinion... now you are going through TWO meal times...

nicholas
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Re: How to have a lot of races quickly ...

Post by Stan Pope »

certainly I can envision enough scenarios where parents would be crying foul if one kid accidentally touched another kids car while staging or retrieving.
An accidental "touch" at the finish line is really a "non event" (as compared to an accidental "crunch"!) and is readily handled with a warning reminder.

At the starting line, the racers should stay near the starting line until all have staged. They and the starter, of course, should watch the staging after their car is staged. If the starter or the owner thinks that a car was nudged, the owner is allowed to check it and, if needed, adjust it. The offender gets a quiet warning reminder, too. This has not been an issue for us.

Staging should normally be done working from the lane nearest the starter and working in sequence across the track. For restage, a second staff member should watch from the other side as well.

In some cases, a youngster may lack the coordination to stage safely with other cars already on the track. This is unusual, but possible. The staff should note such youngsters during the first round and, in subsequent rounds, have that youngster stage first and station an extra staff opposite the starter as the others stage their cars.

How such youngsters is identified and tracked is a problem. Ya can't just spray-paint their hands or heads purple for easy recognition! :( Still, when there are 100 or so boys in a group, many of us have difficulty identifying individuals. There are subtle ways to handle it without calling undue attention to the boy or his disability. Might even issue him a "I get to stage first" pass to show when he races again. (Turns a negative into a positive.) But don't tell everyone why ... everyone would want one and no cars would be safe!
Last edited by Stan Pope on Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to have a lot of races quickly ...

Post by mbb »

pack529holycross wrote:
mbb wrote:i sort of understand why some are concerned with time, but if time is a problem, borrow another track for running the ranks. Race the top 3 in each rank in the finals if you have 3 trophies to give, cause the 3 fastest could all be in 1 rank.

Thats how we do it, and let the boys race their cars, and dont put your time constraint on their day..
with respect, it would be the time constraints of parents, and not the coordinators, that determines the length of an event.. additionally, kids without food for more than 3-4 hours is not a responsible way to plan an activity. Therefore, it is a responsible thing to be ever aware of the length of events, as well as insuring that the event is FAIR - certainly I can envision enough scenarios where parents would be crying foul if one kid accidentally touched another kids car while staging or retrieving.

Finally, having 200 cars at an event without efficiency could lead to turnaround times of 2-3 minutes - thats 600 minutes or ten hours of racing... not what i consider a quality event in my opinion... now you are going through TWO meal times...

nicholas

We sell plate lunches immediately before the pack race,. Other races like district and council sell concessions, hot dogs, drinks, etc. Food is not a problem.

Its not that inneficient if you do it right. Most of the time the innefficiency has nothing to do with the boys, its always that the guys running it havent planned well or really dont know what they are doing. Next heat kids are waiting in line and ready to place cars as soon as current heat is recoreded. If time a problem, you run multiple tracks for ranks, Thats how we do district, with 350 cars. I been in one race that took 7+ hrs. Parents generally make no other plans that afternoon. Didnt bother us, we had a great day.
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Re: How to have a lot of races quickly ...

Post by sporty »

i always felt, kids get bored at this age, well even us adults do also.

if a race can not be done in two hours or 2 1/2 hours.

Then very the times for them to come ! add more tracks if it can be done.

These days it seems more and more pack events are running longer than what the kids can tolerate and upset kids = frustrated parents.

nothing it perfect in the world of cub scouts. but good volunteers and planning are a key to it all !
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