Race rules and procedures

[sporty]

Well,

Sometimes i can feel like a old pro, when it comes to pinewood derby. going on 8/9 years now.

I have come to have questions, that I have not been able to find a real answer to or a solution.

Many packs run a variety of different formats for the race, double, single, round robin. Ect.

Same goes for council and districts. Some packs keep the winning cars. other get to take them home before going to council or district.

So we know, there are many different rules and ways that packs,districts,councils run the races.

Now hopefully you are able to follow me so far on this. Sometimes i do not always have the magic words to clarify everythging i am trying to convey.


Well, How should packs, districts and council deal with illegal cars ?

Because in my mind, just having packs that race under rules that are different or looser than there district or council race.

Will certainly increase a car not being legal when it gets to go to district or council !

How should they deal with it ? how do you think it should be dealt with ?

Often district or council races, That committee does not like to or want to get involved with pinewood derby issues at the pack level.

Yet there is a good chance they will, when that car arrives or becomes in there position for that district or council race.

I mean, we can talk about a wide area of possible issues here. From lube, 3 wheel cars, ultralight wheels and so on.

Now say, your son wins his pack race, you're pack has rules that allow for 3 wheeler, but council or district says 4 wheels on the ground.

Your car is impounded by the pack and then you get there and your car is not legal.

What should you be allowed to do ? if anything ?

What if you knew what the council rules or district rules were, but you decided 1st to go with the looser rules of the local pack ?

But then the car you beat, ran by council or district rules at the local pack.

Yet you know when you get there, you're car is not legal, but the car you beat out to go, was legal !

What are your thoughts on this ?

See, What i am getting at, as a car gets to council or district, they may allow you to fix or replace whatever was causing the car not to pass there inspection.

Yet, are you not hurting and taking away from the car you beat that was legal in your local pack ?


Then should that car be allowed still to race at council or district ?


Thats the bottom line, I'm trying to get at. Is situations like these that seem to present themselves that cross from pack to district or to council.


Because it seems to me, some one is getting hurt or someone is getting a break when allowed to still race when something like this happens and goes on.

I feel it's the real problem in pinewood derby. packs get there own power to decide how they run the race and there rules.

Yet they can be in conflict with the district or council races, where the winning cars are headed.

Should they be allowed to race ? allowed to fix them and still race in the same bracket ?


See I feel if a car does not pass inspection.

That at the very least, it should not be allowed to race in the same rank and category.

Example, 1st place car, racing other 1st place cars from council or district.

i feel a non legal car, should be allowed to fix the car, if only the pack rules differ from council or district rules.

however, if they do not differ, then I do not feel the car should be allowed to be fixed and raced.

But at the very least, it should no longer be allowed to race in it's same winning category.

That it would have to be raced in the runner up or loosers bracket.

I'm many are not in agreement. there are so many different ways that the races are being conducted these days.

As the rules have changed either allowing more options to what you can do or rules changing to be more strict and not allowing you to be able to do much.

I certainly feel that council races or district races, should be a timed race !

9 times down the track, 3 times in each lane, if a three lane track is used.

Because, in some races. you check in at 9 am. but the other car you might be racing checks in a 2 pm.

Your car has more runs on it, it's starting to slow down, while the fresh car, that came in at 2pm, has less runs and you are now likely at a disadvantage due to this.

Certainly graphite can be a issue.

This may or may not make since, because so many council and district races differ.

But with 2600 kids, they all cant come at the same time or the same day.

With it being a non timed race, And racers coming at different times to race. Makes it allot harder.

If you arrive at 9 am and are winning, but come 2 pm, that fresh car that just showed up is likely going to have a advantage.

I simply see this is not a super fair race format. It may be the best they have come up with, but not the best choice.

Okay if you are still reading at this point, of this long book.

What about the track for the final race being different than what the other races were held on ?

Seems odd to do this, in this day and age, i mean we all know tracks have different slopes and length and variances.

But I also understand with a large field, many tracks are used and you might have the following-

1 track for tigers, 1 for bears, 1 for wolfs and so forth.

but why not have the finals on those same tracks, that those scouts raced on to get to the finals !

I almost certainly feel, that the finals for a council or district race, should be a spring or solenoid starting gate.

sporty

[Darin McGrew]

Yes, local derbies should use rules that are compatible with the regional derby, assuming that local derbies are being used to qualify cars for the regional derby. But this is a separate issue from whether any given derby uses an elimination system, a round-robin system, a timed system, or any other race method.

Now say, your son wins his pack race, you're pack has rules that allow for 3 wheeler, but council or district says 4 wheels on the ground.

Your car is impounded by the pack and then you get there and your car is not legal.

What should you be allowed to do ? if anything ?

My preference would be to fix the rules so they agree (preferably by changing the regional derby to allow cars with only 3 wheels touching), and to stop impounding the cars after the local derby. I think that impounding the cars is a bad idea in general, but if the rules are not 100% compatible, then impounding the cars is just wrong.

Regardless, I think reasonable opportunity to correct rules violations should be given, even in regional derbies. Even if the rules are the same in the local and regional derbies, there are legitimate reasons for a car that passed inspection for the local derby to no longer pass inspection at the regional derby. And of course, there are also differences in interpretation/enforcement of the rules.

I certainly feel that council races or district races, should be a timed race !

A regional derby certainly needs to use a track that can distinguish between highly optimized cars. I think this is a separate issue from whether to use finish order or times.

Personally, I feel more confident determining a winner by watching cars race down the track side-by-side, than by comparing times recorded in separate runs down the track.

Because, in some races. you check in at 9 am. but the other car you might be racing checks in a 2 pm.

This doesn't make sense to me, except possibly for an overall fastest car. For example, Tigers check in at 9am and race shortly thereafter, Webelos II check in at 2pm and race shortly thereafter, and later the fastest cars in each age group race for the overall fastest car.

What about the track for the final race being different than what the other races were held on ?

That depends how the finals were being conducted. I can see a system where everyone gets n races on one track, and then the finalists get n races on another track. All 2n times are compared to determine the winners from among the finalists. In this case, the finals are collecting additional information about the finalists (i.e., how fast they are on two different tracks), so the final finish order can be argued to be more accurate.

But if the results from the first track are simply replaced with the results from the second track, then it seems pretty arbitrary to switch tracks.

[PWD_addict]

In our District, where I chair our Derby, the rules are published long beforehand and everyone knows they must meet the District rules to race. They can even make a new car, if they wish. In our District, the boy is qualified, and not the car. Doesn't seem fair if one Pack has very stringent rules and their boys get pummeled at District because we have looser rules. Fortunately, we have less than 100 boys so everyone races on the same track and we have timed races to qualify--once down each lane. And, timed races for the finals--top three of each rank advance--once down each lane.

[Nitro Dan]

Now say, your son wins his pack race, you're pack has rules that allow for 3 wheeler, but council or district says 4 wheels on the ground.

Your car is impounded by the pack and then you get there and your car is not legal.

What should you be allowed to do ? if anything ?

We wrote a proposal this past summer for having a District Race in our area. While analyzing this problem, we determined that there are two methods of races that could be held at District level. In the first, the car advances to the District race. This is the classic "impound the car" and hold it in a secure location, to be picked up at the District race for racing. Problems here are that rules must match between the Pack and District levels, or the District level rules have to be much less restrictive in order to encompass all of the Pack level rules. Of course then you have to deal with the problem of one car having an advantage over another because their pack rules are less restrictive.

The second method, the racer advances to the District level. This coincides more with what Darin (EDIT: I see PWD_addict beat me to this ) is suggesting. No cars are impounded. It is up to the racer to decide if he wants to race his car as is (provided it meets the District rules), modify his car so that it can race at the District level (again within the District rules), or build an entirely new car to race with. It's the racer who wins this right at the Pack level in order to make his decision at the District Level. In this scenario, Districts would be held late in the scout year (we proposed beginning of May timeframe) so that all packs have the opportunity to finish their races prior to District Race with a few weeks to spare (at the least). The only thing that needs to be passed up from Pack to District are the names of the Packs winners (and their alternates if they couldn't make it).

The second method seemed much more adaptive to our situation and is what we used in the proposal. We also visited a "one track usage for all races" plan, but to do that we had to limit the number of people who qualified at the pack level. Allowing only the top three or four champions from each Pack seemed to be a way to keep the numbers down so racing would fit a specific time period. Originally we wanted it to be opened to the top three winners in each class (Tigers, Wolves, Bears, etc...), but we were not sure that we had the manpower, resources, or the facilities to house a group of that size.

Unfortunately, we never got the "ball rolling" mostly because we could not see a clear advantage for the Pack that would be hosting the Districts, but that is another story for another thread.

-Nitro Dan

[woodworx]

I agree with you Sporty there are issues when it comes to qualifying for a district race or council race with packs all having separate rules. For example my son won his den and somehow also the pack this year and will be going to the council race. The problem is his car got wrecked and was only winning by a nose when the race before he was winning by a foot. His car is now impounded and we will have to drive for an hour to get to the council race to race a wrecked car against the best of the best. This makes for a long day knowing you don't have a chance even before you get there.

[Stan Pope]

I agree with you Sporty there are issues when it comes to qualifying for a district race or council race with packs all having separate rules. For example my son won his den and somehow also the pack this year and will be going to the council race. The problem is his car got wrecked and was only winning by a nose when the race before he was winning by a foot. His car is now impounded and we will have to drive for an hour to get to the council race to race a wrecked car against the best of the best. This makes for a long day knowing you don't have a chance even before you get there.

I'd personally not bother to go! Instead I'd send a letter to the chairman and cc to the council pro who advises the chairman and cite the circumstances that make their plan appear so ludicrous.

[sporty]

We have a car tampering issue for my Girlfriends sons car.

So We will likely be arriving to see it not run down the track due to being damaged due to a interesting situation. Or not function as it should have.

Since We will be there for my son already. It does not upset us as much. but I'm sure my girl friends child is going to have those emotions come to the forefront that day.


Sporty

[woodworx]

Great Idea Stan.

[mbb]

Umm. I dont understand the impound thing.

Does Nascar require drivers/teams to use the exact same car every race and impound it between races? Of course not. Where it the logic in it? Is it a scout competition or a car competition?

For instance, If the top 5 kids in each rank from district get to go to council, and the top 3 in each pack rank to district...and you impound cars..WHAT IS THE POINT???? The lower finishers are all guaranteed losers (pretty much) why would you let them go compete if you arent giving them a chance to WIN. Its STUPID. You are discouraging involvement, which is the opposite of what you should be trying to accomplish! They already know their cars arent good enough! Let them make them better!!! Throw in the risk of car damage or sabotage and impounding is an awful awful concept.

Our pack rules are different from district, which are slightly different from council. Our pack does not want it to be highly competitive, it wants it to be fun for those that build their cars in 60 minutes too.

We are stuck with just building and modifying cars at each step of the way. Thank goodness no one wants to impound them (yet).

Some packs also dont have pinewood derbys every year, they rotate and do space derbys, and the sailboat thing. Scouts that dont have a pack pwd can participate automatically at the district level. It would not be fair to impound others cars and have them be able to show up with theirs on race day, nor would it be fair to deny them a chance to participate! Just say NO to impound.