BSA vs. Pine Pro

[bad_karma_2805a1]

So this year I became the chair of my pack's PWD Committee. I was super excited about this until weigh in last Saturday.

As a side note I also gave a speed class at my pack's Cub College. In it I said for assecories and weights you could go to a place like Pat Katans and get some nice stuff from Pine Pro.

So back to the weigh in, cars started to show up that were Pine Pro bodies with Pine Pro wheels. This caused a huge up roar from one of the committee members. I guess I am more of the "Let's have fun and race" type, where she is more of the "Rules say only BSA wheels are allowed" type.

So we all talked and I made the call that the cars would be allowed to race in our Troop race, but they would not be allowed to move onto the district if the car qualified. The next BSA car will go in it's place.

So this made me start to wonder a few things. Why do Pine Pro blocks and bodies have a shorter wheel base? I would think that knowing these are going to end up in Cub Scout races they would have the same wheel base as a BSA block. Second if the BSA and Pine Pro wheels are the same, shouldn't they be allowed?

Thanks for the help and feed back. I love racing but I am starting to think being the Chairman of the Committee is going to kill my love of it.

[gpraceman]

So this made me start to wonder a few things. Why do Pine Pro blocks and bodies have a shorter wheel base? I would think that knowing these are going to end up in Cub Scout races they would have the same wheel base as a BSA block. Second if the BSA and Pine Pro wheels are the same, shouldn't they be allowed?

BSA is not the only group that does this type of race. There are other large organizations that run this same type of race (Awana, Royal Rangers, Royal Ambassadors, Christian Service Brigade, Lutheran Pioneers, YMCA, and many more).

Why PinePro chose the wheelbase they have, who knows. There are other compaines that make up car kits and the wheelbase can vary. I've even seen the height of the block vary. So, if you want to be picky with the rules, not any old block of wood will do.

[PWD_addict]

Bad Karma--
The rules are there for everyone to follow. If my Cub was in your Pack, I'd be upset. Even if the Pine Pro wheels are identical to BSA (I really don't know if they are--never seen them), there will always be the impression that someone broke the rules and got an unfair advantage. There were probably many Dads/Cubs who saw the rules and followed them. IMO, it's not fair to them to allow Pine Pro wheels (or blocks) to compete for awards.

[priority]

BSA and PinePro wheels are NOT the same. The axles are not the same.

IMHO, the cars with PinePro wheels should have been disqualified as your rules explicitly state BSA wheels. The wheels are different weights and the PinePro axles that I have seen are very smooth out of the box. Given that wheel moment of inertia and axle polishing have a huge impact on speed, one of the choices will have an innate advantage over the other.

When faced with this situation in the past, our Pinewood Committee allowed the Scout to race, but not be eligible for any awards. The alternative for the Scout was to change the wheels/axles to BSA parts to race for an award. We always have spare wheels and axles on hand at check-in.

[Darin McGrew]

Occasionally we get a car at weigh-in with PinePro wheels (or BSA wheels, or...). We hand them a set of CSB wheels and axles ask them to use them.

[Nitro Dan]

We had a similar issue last year that came up as a possible rule change for this year. This wasn't for our regular scout race, but rather for the open class Renegade Race. Our rules for this race say that you have to use BSA Wheels and Axles. A rule change was proposed this year that we allow wheel and axles from Pine-Pro, PineCar, and Awana in the Renegade Race as well. Most of the committee, didn't care one way or the other, but the point was brought up that since this was a "scouting event" that it would not hurt to try and make sure that the BSA organization received the funding from the sales of the extra kits, rather than let the local hobby stores get those dollars instead. I know we are not talking a whole lot of money here, but it was a valid point, so we let the rule stand as is, without changing it.

-Nitro Dan

[ah8tk]

Do the scouts in your pack have to go out and purchase their own car kits? If so then this could be part of the problem. I think they should be told that they need to purchase them from the scout shop or from scoutstuff.org (you could add to your rules that they have to use the kit #17006, the part number has not changed with the new packaging).

In our pack the kits are given to the boys one to two months prior to the derby. When the kits are handed out to the kids I don’t feel there is as much trouble with having people coming to the derby with alternate kits. But some people if they have to travel one mile out of there way will take the short cut (maybe to the hobby shop).

A Cub Scout Pinewood Derby should use the BSA Pinewood Derby® Kit (just my opinion).

[bad_karma_2805a1]

We have decided on a temporary fix. This year any no BSA cars will be allowed to race in the Pack's pwd. However if they qualify to go onto the district, a BSA car will take their place.

I feel somewhat responsible for this whole thing. In my speed class I talked about getting weight and accessories at other stores. This is where I think the people got the idea to use the Pine Pro kits. Next year the rules will be laid out very clearly and if anyone shows up with a non-BSA car they go into the open race.

I have to say being the Chairman of the PWD Committee is kinda killing my love of the race.

[PWD_addict]

I have to say being the Chairman of the PWD Committee is kinda killing my love of the race.

Don't let it be that way. Once you get things ironed out, it's usually a very rewarding job. On raceday, focus on those faces and the boy who gets excited because he didn't come in last!

I know we can be a bunch of know-it-alls here on DT, but feel free to run ideas by us. Sometimes it's nice to be able to converse with people who have "been there, and done that".

[Go Bubba Go]

...I feel somewhat responsible for this whole thing. In my speed class I talked about getting weight and accessories at other stores. This is where I think the people got the idea to use the Pine Pro kits. Next year the rules will be laid out very clearly and if anyone shows up with a non-BSA car they go into the open race.

I have to say being the Chairman of the PWD Committee is kinda killing my love of the race.

I would consider this a "growing pain" and not let it bother you too much. Learn from it, make next year's race better and move on.

Allow me to dwell on a few words from the Scout Law for a moment. "Helpful", "Brave", and "Cheerful", all 3 of which fit right into the Chairman's job description for any event, esp. Pinewood IMO.

"Helpful" to jump right in and organize the event, hopefully some workshops, update / clarify rules to the benefit of all, etc. Doing A Good Turn for others, realizing that rather few will appreciate the work involved and even fewer will take the time to thank you for it.

"Brave" to deal directly and fairly with issues that arise despite your best (and often repeated) efforts. Taking the responsibility and owning it.

"Cheerful" to set a positive and enjoyable tone for the event, even the more challenging aspects (check-in, equipment failures) and despite your own, hopefully limited, disappointments (missing/late volunteers, not getting the pictures you wanted 'cuz you're busy helping somebody else, your own boy dropping his car and ending up mid-Pack...).

Realize that even when you "Do Your Best" there will always be something you could have done better, you may stumble on occasion, but (to quote Teddy Roosevelt):

It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat.

Good for you for taking the job and for sharing suggestions with others about how to build faster cars. If issues arise in the process (whether you contributed to them or not), then just tackle them as they come up and keep on making your Pack's race better year after year.

For me, the "triumph of high achievement" comes in watching all the cars making it down the track, seeing the number of check-in issues continue to decrease, watching the races get tighter and tighter as lots (not all...) the boys improve, etc.

And then when the races go smoothly, there are no boy "meltdowns" and it appears all had a good time... it doesn't bother me near as much when I (or the Cubmaster) get a bit of an earful from a parent whose favorite soda wasn't available at the concession stand (no, I'm not kidding ).

Bubba

[ScoutAndDadTeam]

Do the scouts in your pack have to go out and purchase their own car kits? If so then this could be part of the problem.

What we do is purchase the cars and sell them to the boys. This is also a big convenience to the parents since the scout store is almost an hour away.

I've had a couple of parents ask about Pinecar kits for the first time this year. We've told them no.

I've also had some parents ask about some Dremel kits that Lowes Home Improvement sells. Apparently they have a standard BSA kit packaged with some Dremel tools.

[Go Bubba Go]

Do the scouts in your pack have to go out and purchase their own car kits? If so then this could be part of the problem.

What we do is purchase the cars and sell them to the boys. This is also a big convenience to the parents since the scout store is almost an hour away.

FWIW that is the approach we take as well.

In previous years, the decision in our Pack to charge or not charge the boys was based strictly on budget rather than principle. If the budget was in good shape, the kits were free to the boys. If not, the boys would pay. My argument from principle was that the boys should be "earning and learning" with regards to such things irrespective of any budget surplus, and we have since started charging the boys a couple bucks for the kits.

Still a convenience (and discount) for the parents, but we expect the boys to bring their money to the Pack meeting where we sell the kits, and most have become increasingly responsible at earning the two bucks and bringing it with them.

Bubba

p.s. We have also started charging a buck or two for some of our outings. Small enough to not be an obstacle for anyone, but it does remind the boys to save up the money and bring it with them. I realize that in a lot of cases (unfortunately) they just consult the "Parental ATM" who gives them the money for nothing, but at least they are getting responsible enough to bring it with them to the Pack meeting or outing.

[bad_karma_2805a1]

First off, let me say thank you for everyone's comments and advice. I was honestly thinking that after it was all over telling the Pack Committee to find someone new. But then three things happened yesterday that made me smile and gave me a renewed feeling of excitment towards the race and being the Chairman of the Committee.

1) I got to hold the new "title belt" for the Open Race in my hands. I will post a picture of the belt when it is all said and done. This is a traveling belt so next year the Champ will have to defend it.

2) I secured over $3,000 dollars in give-a-way items for the race. I about fell out of my chair when I calculated the number. It was the first time the Committee had tried to get sponsors for give-a-way items and I think it turned out great.

3) I looked at the pictures of the kids with their cars taken at weigh in and I noticed two things. A, they all looked really excited and B, I saw some of the designs I had talked about in my class.

So I will see you all at the races.

[PWD_addict]

That's awesome!!! Congrats.

[Go Bubba Go]

...3) I looked at the pictures of the kids with their cars taken at weigh in and I noticed two things. A, they all looked really excited and B, I saw some of the designs I had talked about in my class.

So I will see you all at the races.

There's the real payoff IMO.

I don't know how many grown men I've run across who, once they found out I'm involved with Cub Scouts, immediately began to tell me about their personal "Pinewood story".

Something about the event and process seems to leave a significant impression on lots of young minds. GREAT opportunity to teach them about Sportsmanship, Generosity (in helping others), Creativity, and on and on... GREAT opportunity to help the boy and Dad / Mom / Grandpa / whoever his adult partner is enjoy an "incredible bonding experience" (LOL - couldn't help but sneak a Down and Derby movie quote in there...).

PWD Chairman - "Best job in the house" IMO.

Bubba

p.s. Of course it comes with lots of aggravation attached, but at this point I'm still gladly willing to put up with the flys to have a seat at the picnic.