The eBay Car Thing...

[TexasScoutMom]

I have been thinking about this, since there has been a lot of discussion about eBay cars lately. I was very worried that we would run up against some in my son's district race. But.... are those cars REALLY that good? I mean, how much time do the builders put in to them? I know that they have all the best equipment with which to build the cars, but there is no way that they can put their hearts into each car.

I don't know about ya'll, but my son starts building his car in September. It takes three months for it to be finished. We agonize over every little detail.He tweaks and tests and tries out different things until "perfection" is achieved. How could an eBay car compete with that? If the boy, and his parent, is knowlegable about the way to make a good car-- and they take the time to build one right-- then an eBay car is no match for the boy built car. That is my thinking, anyway. I have confidence in my son's ability. Yeah, there probably are some eBay cars out there that could beat his-- but I would bet there are not many!

Just something I have been thinking about. When I first read about the eBay cars I was really paranoid about encountering some-- the idea bothered me. But, it does not scare me after I really thought about it and came up with theory about the eBay builders not working as hard as my son.

[mbb]

I know ebay cars lost at our district and council races. They dont beat very good cars, just the rest of the also rans.

[gpraceman]

Can eBay cars win a pack, district or a council race? Sure. Can they be beat? I think with some diligent effort they can.

Do many of these guys have expensive tools and the knowledge to use them in order to make their cars. I think so, which does make it harder to build a car that can beat them. Can they mass produce these and still make for a really fast car? I think that really depends on the builder's attention to detail.

Should this even be an issue? No. Cheating is cheating no matter how the buyers or sellers of these cars try to justify it. But wherever there is a market, there will always be those willing to take their money regardless of the morality of it.

[PWD Dude]

Buying a car for your son is only cheating him of the experance of the farther/parent & son working togerther.

I have not heard of any winning in the Baton Rouge area. They spent a lot of money for nothing.

They look good, but still don't win best looking car.

[beachnut]

I think there may have been an ebay car at our pack race last month. The car seemed too perfect ... perfect paint, perfect cuts. It had a gaping square hole in the middle and the left/right sides of the square hole had barely 1/4'' of wood left on the outside edges. One drop of the car and I bet it would've broken in half. Another curious thing was that it had yellow wheels. The car could've been built by dad, so I will give them that possibility. Anyway, the car did very well and made it to the final heats but did not place in the top five to go on to districts. My son's car beat it handily and we took first place in pack.

But let me convey the other side. After we checked my son's car in I sat down in the bleachers with my wife. A dad sitting behind me that I did not know started talking to his wife about how he heard that last year's winner was an "internet" car. My son's car won pack last year too. I was floored! I paused for a few moments and quietly turned around and told him that we built that car from the ground up and there was no way it was an "internet" car. However, he would not hush up and started spouting off about how you could buy wheels, axles, etc., etc. off the internet, which obviously I know is true. At that point I just ignored him, turned around and watched my son's car win again The point is that not every car that looks like an ebay car may be one. With the right tools, good plans, plenty of time, and plenty of "heart" as you call it, a knowledgable parent/scout can turn out an excellent racer that will more than likely beat an ebay car any day of the week.

[PWD_addict]

Bring it on, "Physics Professor"!!!!

[Stan Pope]

... It had a gaping square hole in the middle and the left/right sides of the square hole had barely 1/4'' of wood left on the outside edges.

Not one of "ours" ... too much wood! The 1/4" wide rails are for the "faint of heart." We mostly run about 1/8" wide rails when all the interior rasping and sanding is done!

One drop of the car and I bet it would've broken in half. Another curious thing was that it had yellow wheels. The car could've been built by dad, so I will give them that possibility.
...

Just another reason that we try to avoid dropping the cars!

Seriously, that design is one I recommend because it is easy for a youngster to build well with limited skills.

[Nitro Dan]

The point is that not every car that looks like an ebay car may be one.

Most of these Ebay/internet sellers claim that they have sold hundreds of cars. If you put that in perspective with the number of PWD events that are run nation wide each year (which I would guess to be in the 100's of thousands or higher), you would be lucky, or I guess we should say "unlucky", if an actual Ebay car showed up at your event. Statistically it is just not that common.

Most of those who have verified that they did indeed encounter an Ebay car, have only done this once or twice in the entire time they have been doing Pinewood Derby. We perceive this to be a much bigger problem due to the rumors and the "good read" that the stories make when one is verified.

There are other reasons why a parent would buy their son an internet car (or aftermarket parts), other than wanting the son to win. We have discussed in these threads in the past what deterrents can be deployed to reduce the chances that would cause parents to "go the way of the dark side". If the packs aren't implementing the deterrents, then they are letting their members down. We all know that PWD has changed drastically in the past 10 years alone. It's now so much more than just hosting a race.

-Nitro Dan

[gpraceman]

Most of those who have verified that they did indeed encounter an Ebay car, have only done this once or twice in the entire time they have been doing Pinewood Derby. We perceive this to be a much bigger problem due to the rumors and the "good read" that the stories make when one is verified.

To me, the odds of one of these showing up in any particular race (which of course, go up when you look at district, council and other upper level races) is not the issue. What I have seen is that the number of sales of these cars is increasing each year and now you have one of the larger derby suppliers also trying to cash in.

Just how big of a problem does this have to be before people speak out about it? Does it really have to come down to one of these cars showing up at ones race and beating out honestly built cars before people get upset about it?

Nitro Dan, I'm not trying to pick on you, it is more of the attitude that I have seen others have that "it isn't a big problem, so why worry about it", that sticks in my craw. It is quite obvious from the seller's feedback that these cars are showing up in races and have been cheating other cars out of trophies.

Certainly there are things that the race organizers need to address to reduce the temptation of an adult to buy a fully or mostly built car for a kid to run. We do have a whole thread dedicated to those efforts. http://derbytalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=2520

[TexasScoutMom]

I agree that just because a car looks good it is not necessarily an eBay car. I think that my son's car this year looked great. He worked really hard on the paint job. I bought an airbrush machine-- pretty much just for the PWD (though, I may try to airbrush his baseball helmet). My son's car had primer, two metallic base coats, four coats of HOK automotive paint, and then four or five (can't remember) clear top coats for shine. That was before the flames (stencil purchased from "Derby Doc", and I have seen eBay cars with that same stencil). Four different paints went into the flames! I, literally, spent over $100 on paints. It would have been a heck of a lot cheaper to just buy the darn car! LOL! Of course, that would be no fun and I don't think I could have bought a car that was better then the one my son made.

I know that there are some awesome builders out there with cars that look even BETTER the the eBay cars. I also know that there are some awesome BOYS out there who make amazing cars-- it's not necessarily the dads making the cars.

[Nitro Dan]

I, literally, spent over $100 on paints. It would have been a heck of a lot cheaper to just buy the darn car! LOL! Of course, that would be no fun and I don't think I could have bought a car that was better then the one my son made.

I would assume this is one of the top reasons why Ebay car sales continue to rise. To most parents, saving time and money is a win-win situation. In today's economy it can be a difficult temptation to suppress.

Unfortunately, most organizations are more re-active to problems then they are pro-active. A lot of problems at Pinewood Derbies easily build themselves into the re-active model. IMO, before people begin to "speak out" and take action against the Ebay uprising, things are going to have to get worse and more kids will be cheated out of their trophies.

Graceman, I empathize with your frustrations. For right now, the deterrents outlined in the thread you posted are all that there really is for addressing the problem.

-Nitro Dan

[gpraceman]

I would assume this is one of the top reasons why Ebay car sales continue to rise. To most parents, saving time and money is a win-win situation. In today's economy it can be a difficult temptation to suppress.

I don't know that many buyers are looking to save money, with what many of them are plunking out for a car. I think it really revolves around issues like, "I don't have time", "I'm all thumbs with tools", and "I don't want my kid to be disappointed".

Of course, many of us that follow the rules and get our kids activley involved in building their car, can spend a good chunk of change. However, that isn't really necessary. A competive car can be built without expensive tools, aftermarket parts, and expensive paints (sorry TexasScoutMom). Many of us do enjoy building these cars so we may go a bit (or more) overboard in this process. That is OK, as long as the kids are doing their fair part in building their car and the rules are being followed.

Unfortunately, most organizations are more re-active to problems then they are pro-active. A lot of problems at Pinewood Derbies easily build themselves into the re-active model.

Unfortunately, that is true of our society as a whole.

IMO, before people begin to "speak out" and take action against the Ebay uprising, things are going to have to get worse and more kids will be cheated out of their trophies.

I am afraid you are right in that it will have to get much worse before many will do anything about it. Though, to be silent on the issue will certainly not help. Sellers, of course, would love it if people kept silent on this issue.

Graceman, I empathize with your frustrations. For right now, the deterrents outlined in the thread you posted are all that there really is for addressing the problem.

Well, what would really help, IMO, is if BSA, Awana, and so on, take a closer look at their "rules in the box". A much better job could be done to emphasize that the kids are to be actively involved in the building process for their car, to the best of their physical and mental abilities.

Then local organizations need to step up and do what they can to help those child/adult teams when they need the help (tools and/or expertise).

By discussing these things on the derby forums, hopefully, we are at least getting people at all levels of an organization to think about the issue and to start looking at ways they can better serve their members, which would help undercut this market.

[pack529holycross]

I have an opinion, and that opinion is that racing a PWD car comes as a result of building one. Entering a PWD car that you did not build would be much like entering a model into a model building show that you did not build. PWD is a physics and woodworking project FOLLOWED up by an opportunity to find out how well their construction and set up skills translate into a well built, consistently fast car.

Without this entire process being available to the kids, this becomes a trophy chase with the highest amount of parent involvement winning. This is not to say that a kid cannot build a lightning rod, and any lightning rod could not possibly be built by a kid. It IS to say that shortcutting the ENTIRE process really defeats the spirit and intent of WHY this ENTIRE event was created in the first place.

Just an opinion.

Nicholas

[gpraceman]

A competive car can be built without expensive tools, aftermarket parts, and expensive paints (sorry TexasScoutMom). Many of us do enjoy building these cars so we may go a bit (or more) overboard in this process. That is OK, as long as the kids are doing their fair part in building their car and the rules are being followed.

TexasScoutMom,

Hopefully, you didn't think I was picking on you and that you caught the next two sentences.

[TexasScoutMom]

GP:
No, I didn't think that you were picking on me. I chose to spend the money on the HOK paints because I wanted my son's car to look good. His favorite part of the car is the painting, so I wanted him to have the best tools. Fortunately we had the money to buy the top paints. But, if we hadn't had the money then I am sure he would have made it look good with Apple Barrell paints from Wal-Mart. (Besides, my hubby says that I LIKE spending money. LOL!)

We do not have a fancy workshop with a $3,000 lathe and all that kind of stuff. We have tools, and obviously adequate tools-- but nothing like those big time builders have. And, that is ok. As it has been pointed out-- parents do NOT have to spend large sums of money for their boys to make a fast, and good looking, car. That is the beauty of the PWD!

Oh, and even though my son built his own car, I CAN take some of the credit. If it had not been for my advice (and NAGGING.... are you going to sand today? Are you going to get that third coat of paint on today? Are you going to work the graphite into the hubs this evening?) then my son's car would not have been nearly as fast! LOL! We made a really fast car and we are NO where near rich! (And we don't have a lot of spare time, either. People make time for what is important)