District and Council Derbies do not meet the purpose?

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Stan Pope
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Re: District and Council Derbies do not meet the purpose?

Post by Stan Pope »

FatSebastian wrote:
Stan Pope wrote:And, it avoids the tendency of some pack leaders to elect to not hold a pack derby with the "out" that "Those who want to race can just go to the district/council races and we won't have the bother of a pack race."
Fair point.
So, in effect, the district race indirectly serves all of the Cubs in the district by its encouragement of pack racing.

BTW, in our district, it is the boy and not the car that is qualified, and the pack submits the registration sheets according to the race results and the boy's desire to race. Since it is the boy, not the car, that qualifies, no attempt to assure that it is exactly the same car from the pack race that races in the district race. Almost every race car entered in pack races can be improved, and the pack race often shows the teams what kind of shortcomings the cars have. Participation in the district race is better if the teams have an opportunity to correct such deficiencies as they find during the pack competition!
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Re: District and Council Derbies do not meet the purpose?

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idpwdnut wrote: The DE that I talked to said that they only occassionaly do a district derby, never a council one because it does not meet the purpose of the pinewood derby in BSA? I am wondering if any of you can shed any light on that line of thought for me.
It sounds to me like they've had too much "drama" in the past. If that's the case, then he's right. A poorly run PWD does NOT serve the purpose of BSA.

PWD is a teaching opportunity. We can teach them good sportsmanship, or show them bad. We can teach them how to do their best, or show them how to cheat. We can teach them how to graciously accept defeat, or show how to throw a hissy fit if things don't go our way.

If you are able to revive PWD in your council, make sure everyone is teaching and not "showing". You'll have much less drama, and much more fun!
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Re: District and Council Derbies do not meet the purpose?

Post by stang68 »

We have not had a Council PWD in over 10 years.We are planning on trying to resurrect it this year at a bi-annually event that has an attendance between 10,000 - 15,000. We have the resources to do this and lots of Leaders with the knowledge to run the event.However the last Council PWD ended with few parents in a fist fight.
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Re: District and Council Derbies do not meet the purpose?

Post by *5 J's* »

OneTimeRunner wrote:
idpwdnut wrote: The DE that I talked to said that they only occassionaly do a district derby, never a council one because it does not meet the purpose of the pinewood derby in BSA? I am wondering if any of you can shed any light on that line of thought for me.
It sounds to me like they've had too much "drama" in the past. If that's the case, then he's right. A poorly run PWD does NOT serve the purpose of BSA.

PWD is a teaching opportunity. We can teach them good sportsmanship, or show them bad. We can teach them how to do their best, or show them how to cheat. We can teach them how to graciously accept defeat, or show how to throw a hissy fit if things don't go our way.

If you are able to revive PWD in your council, make sure everyone is teaching and not "showing". You'll have much less drama, and much more fun!
Yes I can see and understand this. At the council level I could see the possibility of the derby getting too competitive for the Dads. Obviously, if you were to use the Council race as a recruiting tool - it would have just the opposite of the desired effect if the Dads were too competitive.
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Re: District and Council Derbies do not meet the purpose?

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Stan Pope wrote:This has the additional benefit of increasing the excitement related to pack races ... part of doing well in the pack races is to earn the right to represent the pack in the district races. And, it avoids the tendency of some pack leaders to elect to not hold a pack derby with the "out" that "Those who want to race can just go to the district/council races and we won't have the bother of a pack race."
Can this be thought of in reverse, "If we make sure every pack runs a PWD, then do we need to do a district/council race?"
Stan Pope wrote:So, in effect, the district race indirectly serves all of the Cubs in the district by its encouragement of pack racing.
This is what I love about my current district, for better or worse, district as become a tradition that many boys look forward to. When pack leaders decide not to do a PWD race, many of the parents ask about district races and that they would like their boys to have to oppurtuninity to go to district. As a result, the packs have the PWD to make sure the boys and parents get what they want.
OneTimeRunner wrote: It sounds to me like they've had too much "drama" in the past. If that's the case, then he's right. A poorly run PWD does NOT serve the purpose of BSA.
I would think that if they had to much "drama", that the DE would have stated that. It might be a possible reason, but at this point, there is no evidence to say that there is. I have seen the drama, more on the pack levels and less on the district level, at least in the races that i have been to, just in my next of the woods.
*5 J's* wrote:At the council level I could see the possibility of the derby getting too competitive for the Dads. Obviously, if you were to use the Council race as a recruiting tool - it would have just the opposite of the desired effect if the Dads were too competitive.
Although we only have district level PWD, no council level PWD, I have seen just the opposite, the competitivenish of the Dads has been very good, the Dads congratulate each others and there sons. It has been neat to see. Yes we are a small, tight-nit district so many of us interact with each other at church and the high school football games and in daily work. It is awesome to see.

The only drama that I know of in the district that I am currently living in is that the previous District PWD Chairman was allowing cars to race that clearly had violations, wheelbase, wheels, etc. Not only did they run, but won their den, and even won district champion. People complained, titles was stripped, then without anyone knowing reinstated. After that I was asked to take over. Its been good so far, for BSA in our area, district, packs, boys and their families. I just want to see that happen in the new council I am moving to.
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Re: District and Council Derbies do not meet the purpose?

Post by idpwdnut »

After doing some extensive research on BSA's website I have found the following:http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/boy ... ewood.aspx
Under the section:The Why of the Pinewood Derby: What Scouting Goals Are Accomplished? it makes the following statements:

In general, the Scouting program tries to avoid events with a single winner or even class winners. The Cub Scout standard is, after all, that a boy should do his best. ... The primary methods of the Cub Scouting program—including the goal of personal achievement—are based on individual achievement and accomplishment rather than individual victory at the expense of another’s defeat.

The goals of Cub Scouting are not often extended to include competition or competitive sports...

While, in some ways the pinewood derby is a special case (principally because it is so much fun), we can use the pinewood derby to further the goals of Cub Scouting.


And lastly

Given that competitive events like the pinewood derby can raise emotional levels beyond what is appropriate, what Scouting goals does the pinewood derby help a Scout achieve?

■Sportsmanship and good citizenship is taught by following the derby rules and cheering on friends and den partners as they race against
others in the pack.
■Personal achievement comes to any boy who picks up a woodworking tool and shapes raw wood into a sleek design. And, by learning
woodworking, he prepares himself to more easily serve in the Boy Scouting's service projects.
■Family understanding is enhanced because building a pinewood derby car puts the boy and his mom, dad, or other adult partner into a close
and sometimes intense learning experience over, potentially, many hours.
It is very clear that any boy who can cheer on a friend in a derby race, when his own car has been previously eliminated, must be said to have had his character developed, if not his car-building skills. But finally, and probably most convincingly, participating in the derby is fun. This is especially true if participation is stressed, and personal achievement is very broadly defined and rewarded.
:clap:
any boy who can cheer on a friend in a derby race, when his own car has been previously eliminated, must be said to have had his character developed
I have seen this even more at our our district level PWD. As it is currently set up now, everyone that participates in district is there because he won den at the pack level. At district, they may or may not win, how will there character be developed then? I have seen these boys step up and be gracious even though they were not the "winner". It is what we all want to see at any race.

If you can read that BSA Training module. It had some good info.
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Re: District and Council Derbies do not meet the purpose?

Post by FatSebastian »

:goodpost: This does well to address the "purpose of the pinewood derby in the BSA" question of this topic.
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Re: District and Council Derbies do not meet the purpose?

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idpwdnut wrote:
Stan Pope wrote:This has the additional benefit of increasing the excitement related to pack races ... part of doing well in the pack races is to earn the right to represent the pack in the district races. And, it avoids the tendency of some pack leaders to elect to not hold a pack derby with the "out" that "Those who want to race can just go to the district/council races and we won't have the bother of a pack race."
Can this be thought of in reverse, "If we make sure every pack runs a PWD, then do we need to do a district/council race?"
I'm don't know of any other "carrots" that can be dangled to "make sure every pack runs a PWD". This particular carrot adds to the excitement by establishing reasonably achievable goals for every pack derby participant, if the "not too selective" part of my result is observed.
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Re: District and Council Derbies do not meet the purpose?

Post by idpwdnut »

Stan Pope wrote: I'm don't know of any other "carrots" that can be dangled to "make sure every pack runs a PWD".
Even with such a "carrot" I still hear packs say "we decided not to bother" :wall: Was that "we decided" by boys and there families or the pack leaders.

However, working with Councils/District on Venturing events, they have said, we will just leave that up to the individual Crews to do. The individual Crews cannot do a Kodiak X, that is to be done by by the Council or District. Of the 4 VLSC I have helped with, I have only had a 10 minute visit from a DE one one of them. Sorry to get off of topic but I think it points out that those who are sometimes "bothered" are those that this is part of their job description.
As a Cubmaster, it was part of my job to provide the Cubs with a well ran, fun, and rewarding PWD Event. The pack more than doubled when I was Cubmaster because we had fun and meaningful events. The Districts/council will see that to if the hold the event
Stan Pope wrote: This particular carrot adds to the excitement by establishing reasonably achievable goals for every pack derby participant
My son is asking everyday "what day is it" & "how much longer to District?" It is this Saturday, we are making last minute tweaks to the car and he just can't wait. I love to watch him get so excited, he is like a kid at Christmas.

:idea: Hey, he is a kid :!:

I thank you Stan, FS and everyone else for your input :clap: . It is giving me ideas on how to work with my new District to get a fun, well ran, and rewarding PWD going for the District and more importantly the boys.
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Re: District and Council Derbies do not meet the purpose?

Post by FatSebastian »

Stan Pope wrote: This particular carrot adds to the excitement by establishing reasonably achievable goals for every pack derby participant
idpwdnut wrote:Even with such a "carrot" I still hear packs say "we decided not to bother" :wall:
This would be my main concern regarding a Pack-qualification requirement - without contingencies it potentially denies scouts which may have no other opportunity to participate in PWD. Because one could make the argument that a non-exclusive District race promotes goodwill toward resource-starved Cub scouts, either flavored carrot (exclusive qualification, or not) adds merit to the idea of having a District-wide race IMO.
idpwdnut wrote:Sorry to get off of topic but I think it points out that those who are sometimes "bothered" are those that this is part of their job description.
It seem to be a valid and relevant point IMO.
idpwdnut wrote:It is giving me ideas on how to work with my new District to get a fun, well ran, and rewarding PWD going for the District and more importantly the boys.
Of course please keep us informed as to any progress you might make with your new District, and what points are found to be most appealing from the DE's perspective.
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Re: District and Council Derbies do not meet the purpose?

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FatSebastian wrote:
Stan Pope wrote: This particular carrot adds to the excitement by establishing reasonably achievable goals for every pack derby participant
idpwdnut wrote:Even with such a "carrot" I still hear packs say "we decided not to bother" :wall:
This would be my main concern regarding a Pack-qualification requirement - without contingencies it potentially denies scouts which may have no other opportunity to participate in PWD.
For most of our packs, about 50% of the members qualify to the district races. Most packs actually send fewer than the 20 (4 from each grade), but few seem to select out racers that they don't think will be competitive.

But, what the district rules don't say is what kind of event or decision process the pack must go through. While there is an implicit expectation that the packs will hold a real, competitive derby, it is not an explicit requirement. The district derby registration is done by the pack. If the pack leadership could "get it past its membership", they could "race" by flipping a coin or drawing names from a hat. (They don't do that, of course.) For a brand new pack or one that is having difficulties getting itself reorganized and the derby just doesn't fit the available planning cycle, the unit commissioner may well suggest that they ask for and then nominate volunteers to represent the pack at the district races.
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Re: District and Council Derbies do not meet the purpose?

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This has been a while in coming, but I am happy to report that I have gotten the district to okay a District PWD. I have the location reserved, the date locked in, the trophies are taken care of and the track and race equipment inline.

I just need to get some volunteers to help staff, which I am finding Scouters who are willing and wanting to help.

Where they have not ran district derbies in the past our first year, maybe even first couple/few years, may not be super attended. But I announce at last weeks roundtable that we will be having a district derby regardless of how few or how many show up. Last year three of our districts had derbries planned and I know that two of them cancelled and I believe the thrid one did also. I think the kids will come if we give them a good event. Even if I just get a handful and make it good for them, they will tell others and it will grow. Wish me luck.
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Re: District and Council Derbies do not meet the purpose?

Post by rpcarpe »

Good Luck!
Did you restrict entrants to just the winners from Pack races or is it open to all interested?
My wife started a new support group... Widows of the Pinewood Derby.
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Re: District and Council Derbies do not meet the purpose?

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rpcarpe wrote:Good Luck!
Did you restrict entrants to just the winners from Pack races or is it open to all interested?
Great question! My survey a few years ago suggested that "selective, but not too selective" produced the highest turnouts. The peak district turnout occurred when either 3 or 4 top racers from each grade from each pack were accepted for racing at district. This selectivity routinely produced much higher participation at district than an open door "anyone who wants to race can race" policy. Remember, too, that the purpose of District or Council PWD isn't to discover the fastest car ... it is to provide an exciting event for as many of the district's members as possible.
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Re: District and Council Derbies do not meet the purpose?

Post by idpwdnut »

rpcarpe wrote:Good Luck!
Did you restrict entrants to just the winners from Pack races or is it open to all interested?
Thanks rpcarpe!! I agree with Stan, Great question! The district race will be open to all Cub Scouts in the district. It is the first year that it has been done in quite some time, so I want to generate some interest and excitement, then as numbers increase, change to a winners from Pack races venue.
Stan Pope wrote: My survey a few years ago suggested that "selective, but not too selective" produced the highest turnouts. The peak district turnout occurred when either 3 or 4 top racers from each grade from each pack were accepted for racing at district.
I remember that survery and this is were I hope the district race will go. With each pack having a race and sending Cubs to district.
Stan Pope wrote:This selectivity routinely produced much higher participation at district than an open door "anyone who wants to race can race" policy.
My concern with a district race that is "anyone who want to race can race" is that many packs will just say "because there is a district race, we will not hold own race, just go to district". A "qualifying pack event" requirement for district would make sure each pack has its own race.
Stan Pope wrote:Remember, too, that the purpose of District or Council PWD isn't to discover the fastest car ... it is to provide an exciting event for as many of the district's members as possible.
I wonder if it would be better to say "the main purpose of District or Council PWD isn't to discover the fastest car ... it is to provide an exciting event for as many of the district's members as possible" From my experiences so far, I know the race teams (Cub/Parent or guardian) are very interested in who is the fastest. They love that trophy. It is only one of the purposes. However, as the event coordinator, it is my responsiblity to make sure that we have a fun, fair, and exciting event for the participants.
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