First Race - Tie Breakers?

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DMWOOD
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First Race - Tie Breakers?

Post by DMWOOD » Sat Mar 20, 2004 7:32 pm

This was my first race today and we made it through. The timer gave me a scare and something to think about the night before the race. This gave me a reason to get up early on race day. After the timer problem was fixed the rest of the day went well and every car made it past the finish line.

We had 12 scouts and ran a CP13-3 with one Filler Car. Our timer will read to .001 Seconds and during the race we had 4 ties. These races were reset and ran a second time to get the places for that race. I think this is the correct way to settle this, right?

In the end we had a tie in the Bear group and for the Overall Pack. As a tie breaker for these, I had the two scouts race each other three time. One scout in lane 1 and the other in lane 2 for the first race, then each car shifted right one lane for the next race. Lane 3 then went to Lane 1.
The first race in both of these tie breakers was a tie by the timer and had to be re-run to get a winner for that race. The car with the best out of three races was the winner. Is this the best way to settle this?

Our software scores by points but also collects the time as well. The only way I can use the time is to extract it and put it in excel. Once I got home I had time to do this and here is what I found. For the overall Pack after 12 races, .012 seconds seperated the top 2. The 1st place winner after the tie breakers was the slower of these two. This is why I am asking the question.

Any advise you may have will help me for next year.

Thanks,



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gpraceman
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Re: First Race - Tie Breakers?

Post by gpraceman » Sat Mar 20, 2004 7:45 pm

DMWOOD wrote:Our timer will read to .001 Seconds and during the race we had 4 ties. These races were reset and ran a second time to get the places for that race. I think this is the correct way to settle this, right?
If running times with a final standings method, you don't have to worry about ties in any particular heat. You can wait until all heats are run and then view the standings. If then you have a tie, then go ahead and do a tiebreaker.
DMWOOD wrote:Our software scores by points but also collects the time as well. The only way I can use the time is to extract it and put it in excel. Once I got home I had time to do this and here is what I found. For the overall Pack after 12 races, .012 seconds seperated the top 2. The 1st place winner after the tie breakers was the slower of these two. This is why I am asking the question.
I assume you were using GrandPrix Race Manager. If so, you can simply change to times scoring in the Software Setup Options screen. Then you can see all of the times data and statistics. It is pretty interesting to see how the end results of each scoring method turn out.


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Cory
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Re: First Race - Tie Breakers?

Post by Cory » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:44 pm

Congratulations on running your first derby!!!
DMWOOD wrote:These races were reset and ran a second time to get the places for that race. I think this is the correct way to settle this, right?
FWIW, my Pack does not re-run tied races. E.g. given 4 cars and a tie for second place, our MicroWizard timer will display 1-2-2-3. This is what we enter into our homegrown race software, which then changes it to 1-2-2-4, and that's how we score the race.

If you prefer to re-run the race, another thought is to re-run ONLY the lanes that tied. That is, don't make the boy who already won the race above have to win it again just because two other cars happened to tie.
DMWOOD wrote: As a tie breaker for these, I had the two scouts race each other three time. One scout in lane 1 and the other in lane 2 for the first race, then each car shifted right one lane for the next race. Lane 3 then went to Lane 1. The first race in both of these tie breakers was a tie by the timer and had to be re-run to get a winner for that race. The car with the best out of three races was the winner. Is this the best way to settle this?
I think there is a better way. In your method, suppose the two cars are objectively the same speed. Suppose Lane 1 is the fastest and Lane 3 is the slowest. Then if they race according to form, the car that starts in Lane 1 will always win the first two races, and therefore the tie-breaker. In this scenario, flipping a coin to decide the winner would have been just as good.

Pick your two most even lanes and alternate until someone wins two heats in a row.



DMWOOD
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Re: First Race - Tie Breakers?

Post by DMWOOD » Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:59 am

I know points vs. time is discussed in a different thread but here it goes. In this case with everyone running in each lane the same number of times would total time for all 12 races be the most accurate way to determine the winner? or at least use it to settle a tie? With total time to .001 seconds it will be less likely to have a tie.

I am just trying to figure out the best way to handle this problem for next year. For me to feel better about this years race, I think I need to purchase another 1st place trophy.

Thanks for your words of wisdom.



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Re: First Race - Tie Breakers?

Post by Stan Pope » Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:53 pm

DMWOOD wrote:I know points vs. time is discussed in a different thread but here it goes. In this case with everyone running in each lane the same number of times would total time for all 12 races be the most accurate way to determine the winner? or at least use it to settle a tie? With total time to .001 seconds it will be less likely to have a tie.
DMWOOD wrote:I am just trying to figure out the best way to handle this problem for next year. For me to feel better about this years race, I think I need to purchase another 1st place trophy.
I don't have a problem with awarding duplicate trophies when the cars are more equally matched than the track can distinguish. (I've done that.) If you go for an alternating lane runoff, put a limit on it, after which you may declare a true tie.

If you tie-break with times, think carefully about how many times you include ... overall average? (One poor run can destroy an average time.) Just for the tiebreak heats? Sum of best times on each lane?

Some folks would exclude one or more high and low times for each racer. Hard to justify any particular strategy over another ... depends a lot on what aspect of speed your group thinks is most important.

Consider the boy's learning curve and car's break-in curve. One poor run can destroy an average time.


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Re: First Race - Tie Breakers?

Post by MathGuy » Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:30 pm

In the end we had a tie in the Bear group and for the Overall Pack. As a tie breaker for these, I had the two scouts race each other three time. One scout in lane 1 and the other in lane 2 for the first race, then each car shifted right one lane for the next race. Lane 3 then went to Lane 1.
The first race in both of these tie breakers was a tie by the timer and had to be re-run to get a winner for that race. The car with the best out of three races was the winner. Is this the best way to settle this?
Our Pack, Reruns any race where there is a tie in a heat. Period. Even if it is 3rd and 4th place, the entire heat is reran.

As far as a tie for points, in the past, we raced the two cars, in two lanes, alternating lanes the same two lanes every race. The cars raced until one of the cars won races consecutively. This worked for us.

If cars are that close, that they keep winning alternatively for a few rounds, you can try another pair of lanes. Or, take out some paper and pencil adding times of two races, (alternating lanes).


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Rob D

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