Critique my Rules

General race coordinator discussions.
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idpwdnut
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Critique my Rules

Post by idpwdnut »

I have put up some threads about odd rules. I think to be fair, its only fitting that I post the rules that I have help written for our District for others to review. Please let me know what you think. What I can improve. I think all rules are a work in progress and are alway evolving and improving.
First time I done a link like this, hope it works.

http://www.bmcbsa.org/docs/rattlesnake/ ... ATIONS.pdf
rpcarpe
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Re: Critique my Rules

Post by rpcarpe »

Not bad.
I'm always in favor of opening up the rules to allow for more innovation and experimentation by the scouts.
I've never seen glass prohibited, what's with that?
So I can use a oily lubricant, it just has to dry by inspection time?

I consolidated the source of all materials, must use BSA, not 3rd party altered parts etc... check these that we're using this year:

2012
The purpose of the Pinewood Derby is to provide a positive experience for the organization, the parents and the child with the emphasis on the child.Innovate and Educate, Don't Legislate!
1. You must use official BSA Pinewood Derby bodies, wheels and axles. Use of pre-cut bodies is prohibited. BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby wheels and axles that have been altered and re-sold by third parties are prohibited.

2. Weight: 5.00 ounces or less. The official scale is final.

3. Dimensions: Length: 7 inches maximum, Width: 2 3/4” maximum, Height 4” maximum. Must clear 3/8” high center guide. Car wheels must be at least 1 5/8” apart to straddle a center guide.

4. Gravity powered only. No power assist devices such as rubber bands or magnets.

5. No additional items may be added to the wheels or axles such as washers, springs, bearings, bushings, o-rings, etc.

6. Wheel diameters cannot be increased, bore diameters cannot be decreased.

7. Lubrication cannot leak or foul the track.

8. In addition to the individual competition, each den competes as a team. The den with the best overall result wins the Team Trophy.

9. Cars will be checked in/out by the scout, and only handled by the scout. If needed, adults may assist with repairs.

10. The winning racer, not the parent, in each category must give a short speech on their best speed secrets upon presentation of their award. The committee decides the number of winners who must talk. Be prepared.

The Pinewood Derby is NOT about building cars, it’s about building scouts.

The officials for this Derby are volunteers.
Before you criticize their decisions, be prepared to take their place.


(I also list PWD web sites, including this one, and give my contact information for questions and for time in workshops.
Last edited by rpcarpe on Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
My wife started a new support group... Widows of the Pinewood Derby.
Rukkian
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Re: Critique my Rules

Post by Rukkian »

I think for the most part they are pretty solid. You may be opening up people wondering what h, v etc cuts are and may worry people that would not even know what those mean.
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FatSebastian
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Re: Critique my Rules

Post by FatSebastian »

Rukkian wrote:I think for the most part they are pretty solid.
I agree. Some comments...
Entire car, including add-ons shall not exceed 5.0 ounces.
You might want to add something like "...on the official scale" to avoid disagreements regarding about whether a car is "really" 5 ounces.
BSA wheels other than the 1999 and 2009 styles will have to pass inspection on day of race by race committee and may not be allowed.
You may want to omit this. Only die-hard Pineheads might understand / make a distinction between "1999 and 2009 styles." If this is necessary, you might replace it with "BSA wheels manufactured before 1999 are not allowed," but it seems unlikely that anyone will be racing with wheels older than the Scouts themselves.
Axles must be as those furnished in the Official BSA Kit.
This seems to disallow official BSA replacement axles (e.g., Revell or BSA tubes), requiring people to buy a new block if they need to replace an axle. Interestingly, the need for "kit" wheels is not required.
Mercury Weighting
The availability of elemental Hg seems to have been regulated out of reach of regular folks.
idpwdnut
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Re: Critique my Rules

Post by idpwdnut »

rpcarpe wrote:I'm always in favor of opening up the rules to allow for more innovation and experimentation by the scouts.
I've never seen glass prohibited, what's with that?
So I can use a oily lubricant, it just has to dry by inspection time?
I have always liked "open" rules, I feel scouts will learn more if allowed to innovate and experiment.
We have had cars with glass cockpits, not plastic, concerned about fragile glass breaking and having sharp egdes. However not seen very often. May not really even be necessary.
Wanted to leave lubrication up to teams imagination and not limit it. It is always fun to put a lemon scented car on the track, they used pledge to lube the axles. However I like your wording much more.
rpcarpe wrote:6. Wheel diameters cannot be increased, bore diameters cannot be decreased.
Would it be correct to say any wheel mods are a go as long as it performed by the cub/parent team. Such as the razor wheels that were shown DT couple years back.
rpcarpe wrote:10. The winning racer, not the parent, in each category must give a short speech on their best speed secrets upon presentation of their award. The committee decides the number of winners who must talk. Be prepared.
I very much like that concept. At my sons last Pack PWD as a Webelos II, after he won, many of the parents, come up and asked me what I did to make the car "so fast" I directed them to my son. He was awesome, he talked to them about placing the weight to maximize potental energy, polishing axles and wheel bores to reduce frictions, aligning the car to be a rail rider. He did very well, is was so proud of him and how he was educating adults.

My contact info is on the flyer for the event, but I like the idea of putting resource website like DT on there.
Rukkian wrote:I think for the most part they are pretty solid. You may be opening up people wondering what h, v etc cuts are and may worry people that would not even know what those mean.
Thanks Rukkian. My last district always had h and v cut wheels at them, along with rounded wheels that showed up, but had to be changed out. I was wondering about having a diagram showing acceptable/unacceptable wheels.
FatSebastian wrote:
Entire car, including add-ons shall not exceed 5.0 ounces.
You might want to add something like "...on the official scale" to avoid disagreements regarding about whether a car is "really" 5 ounces.
This is something that is in our "Race Purpose and Scope" document that covers how the race will be, the what if of cars coming out of lanes and etc. We have had a couple of people agrue that there car was 5 ounces on their scale, but a simple discussion of making sure that all cars are weighed on the same scale as oppose to 10 different scales is more fair, but written into the rules would avoid that discussion.
BSA wheels other than the 1999 and 2009 styles will have to pass inspection on day of race by race committee and may not be allowed.
You may want to omit this. Only die-hard Pineheads might understand / make a distinction between "1999 and 2009 styles." If this is necessary, you might replace it with "BSA wheels manufactured before 1999 are not allowed," but it seems unlikely that anyone will be racing with wheels older than the Scouts themselves.[/quote] At every one of the last districts races I did before I moved, we had 3 or 4 cars show up with the CMI wheels. Alway cool to see. We had an "old-timer" scouter that helped out cubs and he had a bunch of these wheels. Cars were never to fast, but held there own so as the were at one time BSA issue we allowed them. I never thought about them being older than the cubs racing them. LOL
[quote="FatSebastian
Axles must be as those furnished in the Official BSA Kit.
This seems to disallow official BSA replacement axles (e.g., Revell or BSA tubes), requiring people to buy a new block if they need to replace an axle. Interestingly, the need for "kit" wheels is not required.[/quote] That is certianly not what was meant to be conveyed. The word "as" meant that axles like those in the kit, this would include the BSA/Revel kits. As opposed to brass nails or screws. We will make sure to clarify that for the participants on the next cycle. Very insightful.
FatSebastian wrote:
Mercury Weighting
The availability of elemental Hg seems to have been regulated out of reach of regular folks.
I moved from southern Idaho/northern Nevada where there is a fair amount of mines. There is a surprising amount of mercury floating around. Each year somebody would tell me about the car they built for their pack was that had mercury in it. It may be different in my new area.

Thanks to all so far for your insightful comments and suggestions.
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Derby Evolution
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Re: Critique my Rules

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Just a couple of things that I see.
BODY: The body for the car must be made out of wood. The body may be shaped, hollowed out,
or built up from the block of wood in the kit as long as it meets all other specifications.
Does this mean that the offical block from the kit needs to be used? The way the rule is written people could purchase a poplar laser cut body from my site and be legal, at least that is how I read it.
ADD-ONS: Additions to the original body, for example, steering wheels, decals, paint, weights, etc.
must be firmly attached. No glass may be attached to car.
Could someone add plastic/ metal to the side of the body where the wheel meets the body as long as it is firmly attached and then polish it? Would this be considered a wheel washer by your rules? This is what comes to mind.

Image
rpcarpe
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Re: Critique my Rules

Post by rpcarpe »

idpwdnut wrote:
rpcarpe wrote:I'm always in favor of opening up the rules to allow for more innovation and experimentation by the scouts.
Would it be correct to say any wheel mods are a go as long as it performed by the cub/parent team. Such as the razor wheels that were shown DT couple years back.
rpcarpe wrote:
Yes, razor wheels made by the build team (not purchased) are totally legal. I'm showing parents how to do it on a wheel mandrel and drill, or some are willing to learn on my lathe. The kids' faces when they lighten a 2.6g wheel to 1.x is very cool!

Other issue brought up: BSA wood blocks, wheels and axles. We don't specify kits, but just say all BSA supplied items. BSA is supposed to start selling wedges? So those would be fine too.
My wife started a new support group... Widows of the Pinewood Derby.
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3 Cub Dad
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Re: Critique my Rules

Post by 3 Cub Dad »

idpwdnut wrote:I have put up some threads about odd rules. I think to be fair, its only fitting that I post the rules that I have help written for our District for others to review. Please let me know what you think. What I can improve. I think all rules are a work in progress and are alway evolving and improving.
First time I done a link like this, hope it works.

http://www.bmcbsa.org/docs/rattlesnake/ ... ATIONS.pdf

Going back to the original rules critique request by idpwdnut:

Only a couple of points: Is removal of the outer hub step allowed? Is it or is it not considered "removing material"? Became a serious issue at our district derby last year! So this year's rules are explicit on it.

Using these rules, we would run with only 3 wheels in the normal position, with a pin in the non-dom front, and mount the 4th recessed into the top of the body, attached with the nail! Done right, you can drop a tenth or two!

3 Cub Dad
idpwdnut
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Re: Critique my Rules

Post by idpwdnut »

Derby Evolution wrote:Just a couple of things that I see.
BODY: The body for the car must be made out of wood. The body may be shaped, hollowed out,
or built up from the block of wood in the kit as long as it meets all other specifications.
Does this mean that the offical block from the kit needs to be used? The way the rule is written people could purchase a poplar laser cut body from my site and be legal, at least that is how I read it.
The citied rule says "block of wood in the kit". I see that it is not very well written. Some could easily say that "kit" means "BSA kit", but it does not say "BSA kit". I personaly do not have a problem with pre-cut bodies per say. Pre-cut bodies purchased at Micheals or Hobby Lobby offer no speed advantage over a BSA block, some pre-drilled block sold by companies not allowed to be mentioned here offer the platform for speed only if the builder has the knowledge to explot it (no silver bullets) The citied rule also does not forbid pre-cut bodies. For these rules, for this year, I would have to say the pre-cut blocks would be allowed. I have been on committees where we did allow pre-cut cars thinking of single working parents, or parents without tools or skills to take a raw block to a car. We have offered workshops for these situations but have experienced where people are to busy or embarassed to ask for help. I will bring it up with our race committee for next year.
Derby Evolution wrote:Just a couple of things that I see.
ADD-ONS: Additions to the original body, for example, steering wheels, decals, paint, weights, etc.
must be firmly attached. No glass may be attached to car.
Could someone add plastic/ metal to the side of the body where the wheel meets the body as long as it is firmly attached and then polish it? Would this be considered a wheel washer by your rules? This is what comes to mind.

Image
I would say that plastic or metal added to the side of the body would fall under "PROHIBITED ITEMS" as wheel washers or wheel bushings. To me that would be a bushing. I have seen/heard many discussions of what a wheel bushing is.

Thank you for your input. Very constructive.
idpwdnut
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Re: Critique my Rules

Post by idpwdnut »

3 Cub Dad wrote:Is removal of the outer hub step allowed? Is it or is it not considered "removing material"? Became a serious issue at our district derby last year! So this year's rules are explicit on it.
Very interesting. I was not considering removal of the outer hub along the same line as removal on material from the inside of the wheel. These rules do not address it. I may be in for the same "issue" as you experienced last year. How are you handling the ruling on it for this year. I am thinking that we have to allow outer hub step removal. Here is why, BSA sells the Derbyworx Pro Hub Shaver, my council's had them in and they are gone. In the BSA catalog, they give a link to the Derbyworx website on how to use their tools and in the video for the Pro Hub Shaver, it in detail shows how to remove the hub.
3 Cub Dad wrote:Using these rules, we would run with only 3 wheels in the normal position, with a pin in the non-dom front, and mount the 4th recessed into the top of the body, attached with the nail! Done right, you can drop a tenth or two!
:bigups: Look at the rules and make them work. You have to have 4 wheels, it lets you and your child decide where to put those wheels. A guide pin ensures it stays on the track just in case, the fourth wheel is attached with a nail. If everything else is in line, we say "looks great, good luck at the race and have a great time" What I really like is "DONE RIGHT". If it is not done right, it can be sllooowwww.
You could also hide some of your weight underneath that wheel too.
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