List of all speed modifications in regards to rules creation

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FatSebastian
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Re: List of all speed modifications in regards to rules crea

Post by FatSebastian » Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:11 pm

Speedster wrote:For you it's easy. For the Grandmother I met... raising her Grandson by herself, no tools and no one to help her, it's not only hard, it's impossible.
:o Well, shame on you for not helping her! ;) More seriously though, every aspect of PWD will be difficult for someone with no access to tools and help. Those people must seek help as Akela for their Cubs.
Speedster wrote:Why would anyone allow an extended wheelbase?
Believe it or not, not everyone making a car for a derby is trying to compete for speed. Some are trying to have fun with imaginative builds. Some race organizers put higher value on the potential for variety and creativity, and wheelbase variations allows builders to flex their imaginations to avoid cars that all end up looking too similar.

I agree with Darin that allowing an extended wheelbase isn't a "silver bullet" (in the sense that it provides an overwhelming advantage versus a standard wheelbase).



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Re: List of all speed modifications in regards to rules crea

Post by Speedster » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:00 am

I was able to help the young man, FS. He made it to our District race. I quote Sporty (or at least come close) "It's easier to tune an extended wheelbase car". When rules allow an extended wheelbase the playing field is no longer level. At his request, I have sent a copy of our rules to red2cwm for his consideration. I wish him the Best of Luck in his derby.



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Re: List of all speed modifications in regards to rules crea

Post by Darin McGrew » Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:43 am

Speedster wrote:For the Grandmother I met on Woodville Road, Toledo, Ohio, raising her Grandson by herself, no tools and no one to help her, it's not only hard, it's impossible.
To me, that seems like a much bigger issue than whether extended wheelbases are allowed. There are a lot of things that are going to be impossible for some people unless they have support.

I keep forgetting that there are a lot of derbies where participants are left to fend for themselves. We have always had a series of workshops prior to each of our derbies.



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Re: List of all speed modifications in regards to rules crea

Post by FatSebastian » Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:14 pm

Speedster wrote:"It's easier to tune an extended wheelbase car". When rules allow an extended wheelbase the playing field is no longer level.
:thinking: We note that "it's easier to tune a car with an extended wheelbase," yet simultaneously observe that "an extended wheel base is a complicated build." So when extended wheelbases are legal, apparently one has the opportunity to increase complexity in one phase of the project to promote ease in another phase.

As you note, some Cubs will be better supported than others. While I personally commend you for helping this young lad in Toledo and see that action as leveling, a jealous competitor might argue that such outside assistance is un-leveling. Teams that perform research on DT or buy a tips book might have information that others don't. Other people may stumble upon bad advice elsewhere and be disadvantaged by that. The terrain of the playing field therefore seems complicated in subtle ways that might never be leveled by rules enhancements.

Referring to red2cwm's earlier topic, the construction options allowed or disallowed via local rules tend to reflect the operating ideology of the organizers. Whether extended wheelbases are or are not be permitted hopefully depends on the goals of the activity. The playing field is littered with opportunities regardless of where the boundaries are drawn; wheelbase extension is just one, and some reputable racers would not exercise it as being advantageous anyway.
Speedster wrote:I have sent a copy of our rules to red2cwm for his consideration.
There is probably much that the rest of us could learn from a simple set of "Super Restrictive rules", too. I encourage you to share them more broadly if possible (perhaps as a separate post) if you haven't already.



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Re: List of all speed modifications in regards to rules crea

Post by Rukkian » Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:51 pm

While somebody that has absolutely no tools and no knowledge may have a difficulty making an extended wheel base, what are they going to do, just use the block as is (since they have no tools)? Anybody that can shape the car can easily make an extended wheel base, as all they reall need is a small hand saw and glue. There is a kit at the scout store for like 8$ that has everything they need.

For me, dumbing down the contest to the lowest denominator is not the object, it is is, then build the car for them, and just let them take one and enter it. There will always be somebody with more knowledge, tools, mechanical ability, etc that can make something faster.

By making very strict rules, all you do is make it more difficult to follow the rules, taking away creativity and learning what works, and dumbing down the whole thing just to make sure everybody gets a trophy.

My thought is instead of making everything against the rules, just hold 1 (or more) workshops where somebody with the tools and skills (and a pinehead) can help everybody to make something they can be proud of with their parents (grand parents, etc) and have some fun, which to me is the whole point of the derby. I am by far the biggest pinehead in our pack (as I was in my boys' old pack) and, even though I do not have all the tools or wood working knowledge, I do have a few pinewood related items and the knowledge of what makes an awesome car, and will share any of those items/knowledge with anybody that shows even a little interest.



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Re: List of all speed modifications in regards to rules crea

Post by whodathunkit » Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:10 pm

Darin McGrew wrote:How could I forget? This technique that caused our most recent rule change:

Glue standard nail-style axles into brass tube, creating 2 solid axles instead of 4 nail-style axles. It also created brass bushings where the wheel hub made contact, since the wood body was much narrower than the spacing between the wheels.

Darin, I have seen some dist rules that read like below.

Single axles supporting two wheels are prohibited.

Wheel and axles, which have been modified by parties are also prohibited even if they are from the official kit.


What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?

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Re: List of all speed modifications in regards to rules crea

Post by Speedster » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:26 am

Mr. Rukkian, I actually use to feel exactly like you. I can't seem to make up my mind. I really dislike our latest new rule, "all four wheels must turn" but since everyone has to do it I'll have to live with it. Perhaps racing in our district is not as bad as I think. It certainly is challenging. I'll send our rules out under a different post, as FS suggested, and maybe I'll find out someone has it worse.



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Re: List of all speed modifications in regards to rules crea

Post by pack529holycross » Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:12 am

Speedster wrote:Mr. Rukkian, I actually use to feel exactly like you. I can't seem to make up my mind. I really dislike our latest new rule, "all four wheels must turn" but since everyone has to do it I'll have to live with it. Perhaps racing in our district is not as bad as I think. It certainly is challenging. I'll send our rules out under a different post, as FS suggested, and maybe I'll find out someone has it worse.

if thats the exact verbiage, you might point out to the authors that wheels that TURN seems to translate to wheels that turn side to side, as in a real car.... perhaps they mean to infer that the wheels need to ROTATE on the axles?

other questions to jibe them a bit --- if these rules only require 3 wheels touching, can the 4th wheel be mounted in the "spare tire" position, and if so, does that violate any "no moving parts" rules? lol

I do so enjoy the symantics of derby rules.

Commenting on another subject raised here, the rule " must use the axle slots " should be diplomatically addressed with your rules committee as a rule that, by its regulation, DECREASES fairness and equality amongst PWD entries. Why you say? because there is a demostratable variance in the manufacturing of these slots for distance from each other, distance from end of block , as well as being out of square. Also, as there is not a 100% gauranteed method of assuring that the slots you see are the original slots, true enforcement is not possible.

How does our unit resolve this? we buy wheel sets and blocks in bulk, undrilled, and ONE DRILL drills all the axle holes, extended or not. We then sell the blocks at cost, and the kids simpy buy BSA wheel sets from us or at the scout shop.

"must use whats in the box" no longer can be fairly implied in the rules, since wheel sets are able to be purchased separately, and are OFFICIAL BSA products --- how can you in good concionces prohibit something that can be purchased at the BSA scout shop? We use the verbiage "must have begun life as an official BSA part, or be the manufacturing equivalent in both materials and specifications." Nails can be bought in bulk. Blocks can be bought in bulk. Wheels can be bought in bulk. There is no implied element of "cheating" by rejecting, during your construction process, faulty or poorly manufacatured wheels or axles or blocks. If you bought a Uniform, and you found that the pockets were sewn shut, you would exchange it for a fully functional example. If the quality of the stitching was subpar, you would do the same thing. There is no difference to the application of common sense in the case of wheel or axle or block selection, and making the EXTRA EFFORT to test wheels for balance, test axles for straightness, and test blocks for accurate placement of axles / holes should be REWARDED, in my opinion, since "do your best" does not mean " do your best with what comes out of the box and just live with the results ". Again, just my opinion, but sometimes common sense gets trampled by overzealous power trips.

While I am on this soapbox, the next time someone says " no precut cars - thats cheating / cutting corners / competitive advantage ", you can point out the block in the box is precut for axles, so it must be illegal as well.... and you can then remind them that the original PWD blocks were precut ( rough cut ) and then needed to be shaped. I would also have you go on to say that BSA now sells precut kits as OFFICIAL BSA PWD cars, so BSA is apparently violating it's own rules.. wow that can be very confusing! After the person calms down from your antagonizing them, everyone can calmly realize that a precut car is not a gaurantee of anything other than providing some assistance to someone otherwise unable to cut the car themselves, which is NOT a requirement of participation. ( i.e. i can take the block, prep the wheels, make NO cuts to the car, and race it as is, correct? If that is correct, then a person is NOT REQUIRED to cut the car at all.. and if they are not REQUIRED to cut the car, a car that was cut by someone else does not create an illegal car ). Again, age appropriate activities means that tigers cannot even use a saw at all, or a knife... how exactly are they to cut their cars? Now that we establish that the parent will need to assist, my next question is this --- is the parent cutting the car required to be the SCOUTS parent? certainly there are no requirements in any version of the rules, so a car is either CUT or it isn't. Either your Scout cuts it, or someone else does... so by definition, all cars built by TIGERS are "precut" prior to thier hands being involved, eh?

oh what a slippery slope, indeed.....

can we all agree on the following:

-unless you can prove the driver cut the car, it is assumed to be so
-unless you have proof of a premade "kit car", its assumed to be original construction

Our unit takes the blocks we have pre-drilled and sold to the drivers, and in a few sessions provide rough cut services -- the kids draw the rough shapes on the blocks, we cut them and demonstrate shop safety, they inspect the cuts and recommend additional shaping. I personally would say that if your rules would be violated by these activities, then I think your rules are counterproductive to scouting. In scouting, there is the EDGE training model - Educate, Demonstrate, Guide, and Empower ---- and, in my humble opinion, any activity that upholds the very foundation of that model should not and cannot be "outlawed" or legislated as "illegal" by derby rules.

just my opinion.... let the melee begin :)

Nicholas



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Re: List of all speed modifications in regards to rules crea

Post by Speedster » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:17 am

My apologies. The rule actually reads: ALL FOUR wheels must make contact with the track at all times.

Unfortunately, I cannot address anything with the rules committee because it is headed by the District Executive. My Big mouth got me in trouble with him 3 years ago and he doesn't speak to me. I don't want him to make it rough on the scouts in the Pack that I am primarily connected because of something I did. Another lesson learned although a bit too late.



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Re: List of all speed modifications in regards to rules crea

Post by *5 J's* » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:16 am

Rukkian wrote:While somebody that has absolutely no tools and no knowledge may have a difficulty making an extended wheel base, what are they going to do, just use the block as is (since they have no tools)? Anybody that can shape the car can easily make an extended wheel base, as all they reall need is a small hand saw and glue. There is a kit at the scout store for like 8$ that has everything they need.

For me, dumbing down the contest to the lowest denominator is not the object, it is is, then build the car for them, and just let them take one and enter it. There will always be somebody with more knowledge, tools, mechanical ability, etc that can make something faster.

By making very strict rules, all you do is make it more difficult to follow the rules, taking away creativity and learning what works, and dumbing down the whole thing just to make sure everybody gets a trophy.

My thought is instead of making everything against the rules, just hold 1 (or more) workshops where somebody with the tools and skills (and a pinehead) can help everybody to make something they can be proud of with their parents (grand parents, etc) and have some fun, which to me is the whole point of the derby. I am by far the biggest pinehead in our pack (as I was in my boys' old pack) and, even though I do not have all the tools or wood working knowledge, I do have a few pinewood related items and the knowledge of what makes an awesome car, and will share any of those items/knowledge with anybody that shows even a little interest.
:bigups: :bigups: :bigups: :bigups:

By the way - I guess I missed the poke chip discussion - but yes they have been used successfully in league racing...



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Re: List of all speed modifications in regards to rules crea

Post by Stan Pope » Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:06 pm

I said:
Stan Pope wrote:... I am suggesting to our chairman that the distance from each end of a car to the farthest axle be limited to approx. 6". The reasoning is that allowing more extended wheelbase gives a significant advantage to those who can afford high density ballast or have the contacts to acquire less expensive scrap (e.g. tungsten alloy weld rod ends). While there is still an advantage to the more concentrated distribution of mass, the CM location advantage disappears. Such a rule still has to be "inspectable", and a gage to check "end to far axle" distance is easy to build.
I should have included that our current (traditional) rules allow extended wheelbase. So my proposal is a tightening of our rules on axle location with an eye toward reducing the build cost for competitive designs.


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Re: List of all speed modifications in regards to rules crea

Post by FatSebastian » Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:12 pm

Speedster wrote:I'll send our rules out under a different post
Discoverable here. Thanks, Speedster.



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Re: List of all speed modifications in regards to rules crea

Post by whodathunkit » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:00 pm

Speedster wrote:My apologies. The rule actually reads: ALL FOUR wheels must make contact with the track at all times.
All four wheels on the track at all times?
http://www.derbytalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5339" target="_blank
However:things such as this happen from time to time
are all the racer's disqualified if all four wheels leave the track?

What are some of the repair modifications in regards to the rules creation.

If a car becomes damaged and can be repaired in a reasanable amount of time.
Will you re-run the race again.. if not the damaged car will automatically lose the race.
Or will that race be also be delayed unteil ...
the end of the races if the car is not repired befor it's next heat race.
let's here it what modifications can be done to fix the damaged car?

heres a topic on post race tare down.
http://www.derbytalk.com/viewtopic.php?p=37133#p37133" target="_blank
:agree: with Randy on this one.


What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?

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Re: List of all speed modifications in regards to rules crea

Post by Speedster » Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:42 am

I need to change the topic a bit to answer your question. All cars run each lane of a 4 lane Best track and their times are recorded which is, of course, elapsed time. The 8 fastest cars move to a 4 lane Freedom track, race each lane twice, and are scored by a point system. A car came apart on the Best track and he was helped by his Dad and a Race Organizer to repair it. The scout was brought back and he ran down the same lane by himself to get his time. Racing kept going while he was repairing his car. If a car would get in trouble on the Freedom track I'm sure they would stop the race and fix the scouts car. I suspect that particular race would be repeated. They are not pressed for time since the majority of scouts get to go down a track just 4 times. I doubt anyone is concerned about the car being absolutely, perfectly legal, because the chance of it being fast and taking one of the 3 trophies is quite slim. In this particular case the car did not advance to the Freedom track. I'm sorry if I have made it to look like the race people are nasty people. I know some of them well and they're wonderful men and women. If everyone shows up we have only 30 scouts in each grade group, the 1st and 2nd place winners from their packs. They will do anything and everything they can to make it fair and fun for the scouts. I'm simply disappointed I can't help scouts build rail riders. I read that long, long post about post race inspection. I really dislike that idea, however, if we had a post race inspection the 1st place winner for 4 years would have been disqualified for having a bent front axle and angled rear axles. The modifications were so slight the inspectors never questioned the cars.



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Re: List of all speed modifications in regards to rules crea

Post by Stan Pope » Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:40 pm

Speedster wrote:... angled rear axles. The modifications were so slight the inspectors never questioned the cars.
If you can barely slide a piece of common copier paper under the outer 3/4 of the rear wheel tread, then you have sufficient camber to be advantageous. This camber will usually not be seen during casual inspection.

Front wheel toe-in may or may not involve camber. Toe-in without camber should pass your inspection, since the issue is not whether the axle is bent, but, rather, whether the wheels ride with their treads flush against the track.

This raises another issue: Most car's wheels have sufficient play on the axles that the wheels can be manually positioned so that the treads are flush on the track. However, if the car is then rolled a few inches, the cambered axle will usually cause one side of the tread to lift off the track. At which point in the above do your inspectors check?


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