Wheels Rules

General race coordinator discussions.
Speedster
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Re: Wheels Rules

Post by Speedster » Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:37 am

I enjoy these wheel discussions.
I took a stock wheel which measures 1.186 diameter and weighs 2.60 grams on all 3 of my scales. I then took an aftermarket wheel and it measures 1.170 and weighs 2.45 grams. I think we would all agree the aftermarket wheel is superior. How do I get aftermarket specs without cheating? I used the Pro Wheel Shaver with sandpaper across the blade and light sanded the wheel until I had the specs of the aftermarket wheel. I then installed a cut blade in the shaver and sanded the inner edge of the wheel. The rear wheels will be installed with Negative Camber so they will ride on the inner edge. I now have a lighter wheel but is it as round as the aftermarket wheel? I don't know but I think it would be superior to the stock wheel. I have not cheated.
I'm going to guess a scout that buys aftermarket wheels is out for speed. He's going to do everything else required to make his car go fast. If he had worked stock wheels a bit he probably will win anyway. If a car comes in with aftermarket wheels and is shaped like a locomotive, he's got several speed problems. When I inspect wheels I make sure the tread dots are there, that it's not a 1.8 gram wheel and the outer step has not been removed. If he hasn't violated any of those he's good to go.

I have some aftermarket wheels that measure 1.172 which will not fit in your 1.170 gauge. Changing the diameter to 1.180 will solve nothing. If someone is going to cheat, they're going to cheat, and you probably won't be able to catch them. They know they cheated and they'll have to live with it. I hope the cheater is the adult helper and the scout never learns of it.



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Re: Wheels Rules

Post by rcmoeur » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:16 pm

Now that we've had several months off to recover, I suppose it's time to start looking at the wheel rule again. :scratching:

First, thanks for all the previous input. For the coming year, I'm taking a "clean sheet" approach to the rules, with a focus on clear, objective, and measurable criteria. No, it might not keep expensive aftermarket stuff out of the races, but at least I hope it places everyone at a more-even point and will reduce disputes.

First thing to look at: wheels. This past year, we reserved the right to pull and weigh wheels, and that caused some consternation. I'm proposing this coming year to instead go with three measurable dimensions that can be readily verified without wheel removal, based on measurements of dozens of stock US-made BSA wheels:

Image

A = wheel diameter: no less than 1.180"
B = wheel tread thickness: no less than 0.0635" (this should cover cupping/slotting/grooving...?)
C = wheel width, outside curve (where no lettering) to inside of tread: no less than 0.375"

From what I can see, these dimensions, coupled with visual inspection of the inside and outside of the wheel, should result in wheels all falling within 2-3% of the same angular moment of inertia. The rules will also require the interior and exterior lettering to be visible and intact, and the tread marks and spokes to be fully visible and intact.

We'll also require a minimum underside clearance for wheel access and inspection (which should also cover center rail clearance):

Image

Am I on the right track here, or have I overlooked anything?



Speedster
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Re: Wheels Rules

Post by Speedster » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:57 pm

rc, I think you've got it covered. It's Great to hear you won't be taking apart any cars. Best of Luck in your race.



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Stan Pope
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Re: Wheels Rules

Post by Stan Pope » Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:35 am

with wheel lying on a flat surface, consider measuring distance to (1) inner rim edge (2) interior of "tire" wall. Simple "go/no go" "rocker gages" can do this. And it avoids the "where there is no lettering" measurement limitation.


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Speedster
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Re: Wheels Rules

Post by Speedster » Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:24 am

Forgive my ignorance but I don't know what a "rocker gage" is? Could you draw me a picture and explain how to use it? Thank you.



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Stan Pope
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Re: Wheels Rules

Post by Stan Pope » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:46 am

Speedster wrote:Forgive my ignorance but I don't know what a "rocker gage" is? Could you draw me a picture and explain how to use it? Thank you.
Quite! Harumpf! Yes! There is a brief write up and video here.

Dunno if I ever mentioned this item before. But here it is now.


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Speedster
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Re: Wheels Rules

Post by Speedster » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:35 pm

Very clever, Stan. Thank you.



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Re: Wheels Rules

Post by FatSebastian » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:50 pm

Stan Pope wrote:Dunno if I ever mentioned this item before.
It is the subject of this topic.



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Stan Pope
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Re: Wheels Rules

Post by Stan Pope » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:42 pm

Tks, FS! Couldn't remember and my eyes aren't up to much searching lately. (A medical issue that I won't go into.)


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Re: Wheels Rules

Post by resullivan » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:01 pm

I challenge anyone enforcing these strict rules to compare results from last year to the new year with new rules. Did the kids that finished at the top last year (and that are still in scouts this year) still finish at the top? I bet the answer is yes. At a competitive race I would bet that the people that finish at the top will always finish at the top regardless of the rules. They will most likely follow the rules enough to pass inspection. You know who I bet you are going to disqualify with these rules? Grandpas, moms, dads, and kids that probably do not have power tools. They didn't have time or the forsight to go to the pack workshop. Their son wanted to race so bad that they went on ebay and bought them a car not even really caring how fast or slow it was.

In my opinion the best way to make it a fair playing field without having to worry about cheaters is make the rules simple. The car must be this size, use BSA wheels and nail axles, weight less than this, no moving parts, and can't foul the track. If they buy a full car that is on them. It is actually a good life lesson for the kids. Life isn't fair. Want to win? Well we better build a faster car than you can buy over the internet. Guess what that means? More work and research and learning for the kid and the adult.



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Darin McGrew
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Re: Wheels Rules

Post by Darin McGrew » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:30 pm

resullivan wrote:Their son wanted to race so bad that they went on ebay and bought them a car not even really caring how fast or slow it was.
I agree that it's best to keep the rules simple, but would I have absolutely no problem disqualifying an eBay car, no matter how "well intentioned" Grandpa or Mom or Dad or whoever was.



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Re: Wheels Rules

Post by resullivan » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:53 pm

Darin McGrew wrote:
resullivan wrote:Their son wanted to race so bad that they went on ebay and bought them a car not even really caring how fast or slow it was.
I agree that it's best to keep the rules simple, but would I have absolutely no problem disqualifying an eBay car, no matter how "well intentioned" Grandpa or Mom or Dad or whoever was.
Not defending ebay cars. I just don't get mad about them. I think many people on here would be happy to lock father and son in a confined space for a pre-sepcified amount of time to ensure they were having adequate father-son time as a part of scouting. Take the example above. The family quit the pack because of a PWD race! Thankfully they found another pack, but what if they didn't? Is the point of PWD to alienate kids from scouting based on a decision their adult made?



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