Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

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Rfieldbuilds
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Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by Rfieldbuilds » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:37 am

Guys,
All quick poll to look for advice from you veterans.

Pack derby held last weekend. I'm coordinator and responsible for event. Our inspectors admitted a scout with an extended wheelbase into the general scout race. Ends up, this car won first place. I discovered this after the race when I saw all the winning cars lined up for submission to our council races. In the interest of fairness, do we:
1) do nothing
2) let parent and scout know about violation
3) DQ scouts car altogether
4) DQ scouts car and advance other scouts cars
5) bump extended wheelbase car into extremes (no other entries), award it a first place and bump up other scouts cars
6) some combo of above options?
7) Other suggestions?

I have to recuse myself from the decision and will let Pack master decide as my sons car would be eligible for an overall third place if extended WB car Is DQ'ed. I don't want to hear complaints of prejudicial Monday morning quarterbacking.

Thoughts???

Yes, lesson learned on training inspectors. I accept full responsibility for not getting Stan's checklist to our inspectors and working more with them. Not an excuse, but, I was engrossed in managing other volunteers with set up and check in. Next year better system implementation.
Last edited by Rfieldbuilds on Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by Scrollsawer » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:54 am

Greetings,

I am not sure how your PWD's 'weigh-in/inspection/car impoundment' process works, but in our Pack, if it passes inspection, it's cleared to race.

However...

If the infraction is egregious, then a race official can (and should) talk with the parent(s) to inform them of the rules infraction, and attempt to work together to resolve it to everyone's satisfaction. If that doesn't work, and consensus agreement cannot be reached, then the race committee can make the call.

However...

I don't think we would ever change the final results of an awards presentation after the awards have been handed out. That gets messy, and confusing for the Scouts. All arguments must be made BEFORE the awards are handed out. Kind of like in the NFL, if a bad play call by a referree was obviously an error, and it influenced the outcome of the game, then the game's outcome is not revesed. However, the referee committee should make every effort to implement corrective actions moving forward so that the problem doesn't rear it's ugly head again.

That's how I would handle it.

Scrollsawer


"Laugh a while you can Monkey Boy."

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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by Rfieldbuilds » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:57 am

Scroll saver
Thanks for the reply,
Yes, awards are not yet handed out.i guess the parent and scout would likely be notified privately. The awards handed out next month at our blue and gold.
Even if inspectors had caught extended WB, slots had been filled in, puttied over, and it looks like weight placement would have interfered with actually correcting the car to a point it could have run wih the other scouts.
Last edited by Rfieldbuilds on Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by Speedster » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:20 am

I was not personally involved but the same thing just happened in a Pack in our District. The car will be disqualified at our District race because the wheelbase will not line up with the lines on the Inspection station. I know that doesn't help you a bit. What's Done is Done. Talk to the Adult, tell him you made a mistake, and perhaps advise him the car will probably be disqualified at the District Race. He'll probably get the idea.
Inspectors can make a mistake. I always train the Starter so they are as educated as the original inspectors. One year the starter caught a car using oil when it was not allowed per the rules.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by Rukkian » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:19 am

I, personally do not think anything should be done once the car passes inspection. Once the races start, it should be good to go, as the scout no longer has a chance to fix it. As for moving on, if it wont pass inspection, then it should not move on, unless they can fix it before hand. If the car has to stay locked up and not touched, then I think they should still win pack, but not be allowed to advance.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by FatSebastian » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:46 am

Rfieldbuilds wrote:Our inspectors admitted a scout with an extended wheelbase into the general scout race. Ends up, this car won first place.
Questions:
1. Can you post your local rules, or at least quote the section of the rules that was violated?
2. Did any other cars fail inspection because they had extended wheelbase? (If not, an argument could be made that inspections were at least consistent.)

If any other cars were DQ'ed because of their extended wheelbase, that added complication might justify some penalization the winning car. Otherwise, I generally agree with others saying "what's done is done". The BSA Rules-in-the-Box state "After final approval, cars will not be re-inspected unless the car is damaged in handling or in a race." This is the only rule that comes with the kit directed at the race Committee, such that a no-reinspection clause seems to be an intended policy of the BSA. Your discovery "after the race" constitutes a re-inspection of sorts.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by BallBoy » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:25 pm

I believe that unless your rules allow inspections after the racing has begun you shouldn't disqualify a car for an infraction found later. The approval of the inspectors at the time of inspection is a point of no return.

In our pack's last race a scout showed up with the previous year's car. We didn't have a rule stating that previously used cars couldn't be used again so, despite the opinion of the race officials, the car was allowed to run because there was no stated reason to disqualify it. I'm betting you can guess what the first rule change for next year's race is.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by Speedster » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:31 pm

Rukkian, in our case the car was dripping oil on the track. While we were cleaning the track the oil car changed his wheels and axles and ran with graphite. We had no choice but to stop the race.
The gentleman who was instrumental in our getting a beautiful track was allowed to be the inspector as sort of a "Thank You" for getting us the track. I was over-ruled that day but fortunately that was our only problem. Another lesson learned.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by Rukkian » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:52 pm

Speedster wrote:Rukkian, in our case the car was dripping oil on the track. While we were cleaning the track the oil car changed his wheels and axles and ran with graphite. We had no choice but to stop the race.
The gentleman who was instrumental in our getting a beautiful track was allowed to be the inspector as sort of a "Thank You" for getting us the track. I was over-ruled that day but fortunately that was our only problem. Another lesson learned.
Sorry,

I was actually referring to the original post about the wheelbase issue. As for dripping oil, that is a concern for many reasons, and I agree, the race should be stopped. I think it is good you allowed him time to fix the issue and continue.

For the races I have ran, I try to make sure every boy is able to race if that is possible. While the race is not a necessity, as I think it is a small piece of pinewood, I still don't want somebody to be turned away if there is a way around it.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by Rfieldbuilds » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:53 pm

Here is the short version of our rules as published in our newsletter last week:

Pinewood Derby 2014!
Hopefully everyone has been working on their
pinewood derby cars. If you haven’t it’s not too late,
but it is time to get started.
Our annual pinewood derby is just a couple of weeks
away.
Some important rules to remember when building
your cars (from the District):
1. Racecars must be constructed from the parts
found in the ‘Official Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit’
2. Cars may not weigh more than 5 oz. total.
3. Only the wheels from the kit may be used and
the axles must be in the original axle grooves.
4. Cars may be no longer than 7”, no taller than 4
½” and no wider than 2 ¾”; an underside clearance
of 3/8” and inside wheel clearance of 1 ¾”
5. Weights added to the car and must be secure.
6. Only dry lubricants may be used and they may
not ‘foul’ the track.(graphite or powdered Teflon)

Long Version. See Item T-3 for Wheels, slots and wheelbase note in post below.


T-3. Wheels and Axles: Only the wheels and axles from a single official BSA Grand Prix
Pinewood Derby kit may be used. (BSA approved colored wheels sold separately from the
official kits at the Scout Store are acceptable). The wheels shall turn about the axle nails
from the kit. The axle nails shall be firmly affixed to the wood of the car body, and MUST
be placed in the original 'axle groove slots' in the supplied wooden block
. It must be
obvious to the judges that the grooves, wheels, and the nails from the kit are being used.

T-4. Size: Race cars may be no longer than 7 inches, taller than 4-1/2 inches, nor wider
than 2-3/4 inches, as determined by the judges during the technical registration and
inspection. Underside clearance of at least 3/8 (0.375) inches and inside wheel to wheel
clearance of at least 1-3/4 (1.75) inches is recommended, so that the car will run on the
race track. Adequate clearance is the responsibility of the race car builder. The distance
between the original axle grooves is 4-3/8 inches. This is the only wheel base allowed.
Last edited by Rfieldbuilds on Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by Rukkian » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:02 pm

With the format, that is hard to read on my computer, but I see nothing that mentions the distance between the wheels. It says you must use the slots, but does not say you cannot rearrange the car to move the slots further out. It is a relatively well known idea to cut the car in half, cut the large end of the bock off, and glue it into the middle to get the original slots further apart.

While the intent may have been to not change the wheelbase, that is not how the rule is written from what I see.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by Rfieldbuilds » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:03 pm

ARRGH. sorry for the obscenely long cut and paste I posted. That didn't go so well...



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by Rfieldbuilds » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:07 pm

Rukkian,
Good point. Looks as if we may have to take another look at the car to see if that is the case. If so, my hat is off to them for finding a way to work WITHIN the rules to extend wheelbase.
My opinion, after a quick look at the car, is that the old slots were covered up with putty. I appreciate your observation of our rules system though.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by Rfieldbuilds » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:17 pm

FS,
To answer your question, no other cars were disqualified. To the best of my knowledge, all other scouts cars had proper wheelbase.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by Rukkian » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:23 pm

Like I said, I skimmed through the first time, and missed the wheelbase distinction. Under that, it would not be allowed.

Personally, I do not like rules like this, as it drops creativity, and the ability to really put in work to figure out how to make things better. My boys have learned a lot over the years (as have I) about what can be done to make a car faster, smoother, etc. We are in the last few years, and never really wanted to take it to the next level, being fine just being competitive through Districts. We are at the point where we (mostly my son outside of a few power tools) can put out a car in less than 2 hours work that will either win pack, or as in this year get 2nd in pack to a very competitive family that narrowing lost to us last year.

Each year, I have taken the time to try to explain why we do certain things, and what the potential advantage is. In my mind, an extended wheelbase will not a winning car make, but it can definately make tuning much easier, therefore taking away one of the more tedious aspects of building a car.



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