Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

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TXDerbyDad
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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by TXDerbyDad » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:45 pm

gpraceman wrote:
TXDerbyDad wrote:Because once you're past inspection, there is no risk. It's the reason why NASCAR has inspects cars before and after races, and cheaters always get caught afterwards. Before the race, the car can be corrected, and everything is fine, but afterwards they already competed at an unfair advantage.
NASCAR is an adult race. I do think that we need to do things a bit differently for a kids race.
I don't disagree, that's why I don't like tearing down a car after a race. But, I've also seen some adult behavior to let me know that it's not just a kids race to everyone, and those people can and have ruined it for kids. There's a reason there's a cottage industry around selling derby related stuff, and it's not Cubs who are buying it. Now, I've bought the tool pack from MaxV, and weight and other stuff from other vendors, but I draw the line at a $30+ set of wheels or $16 axles, at least for the Cub races. Those establish an uneven playing field where the most money invested tends to win, and not effort by the Cubs. My scientific curiosity, love of physics and experimentation, and access to a track means I do own some of those things to further my understanding, but I'd NEVER put them on a car in a Pack race. Other people are not so scrupulous.
TXDerbyDad wrote:Here's a hypothetical, built around two actual situations I've witnessed, though modified to show my point.

Let's say your rules allow drilling axle holes, but don't allow modified axles. Unfortunately, without pulling the axles, you can't check, but you take it on face value that they're from the BSA kit and they're normal. Your race is a best 3 out of 4 runs averaged to determine place. One car dominates, and on its fourth run it flies off the track, the car breaks, and a modified axle with relief spots is exposed for everyone to see. The car clearly passed inspection, but you now have proof it was winning because of cheating, and everyone can see it.

What do you do?
Any rule that you cannot verify with a non-destructive inspection, is a bad rule and should be thrown out.
Agreed, but it's a fairly common rule (google pinewood derby rules and you'll see), and a situation I've witnessed where two cars did fly off and break but thankfully they were not cheating. Further, we expect Scouts and people into Scouting to be HONEST. But I'm a big believer in trust but verify.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by gpraceman » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:52 pm

TXDerbyDad wrote:Agreed, but it's a fairly common rule (google pinewood derby rules and you'll see)
Just because a rule is common, does not make it a good rule. A good rule has a way to verify compliance through a non-destructive inspection.

People are trying to even the playing field with such rules, I understand that, but making rules that aren't easily verifiable do not help the cause.


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TXDerbyDad
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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by TXDerbyDad » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:03 pm

gpraceman wrote:
TXDerbyDad wrote:Agreed, but it's a fairly common rule (google pinewood derby rules and you'll see)
Just because a rule is common, does not make it a good rule. A good rule has a way to verify compliance through a non-destructive inspection.

People are trying to even the playing field with such rules, I understand that, but making rules that aren't easily verifiable do not help the cause.
Believe me, we're on the same side of that point. Part of my job is writing corporate policy as a consultant for the Fortune 500, and policy without the ability to verify and enforce is pointless and a waste of time. But barring unified rules from National in Irving, TX (which I don't think would make anyone happy), it the type of rule that won't be going away any time soon.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by resullivan » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:13 am

IMO the $30 wheels even the playing field.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by TXDerbyDad » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:14 am

resullivan wrote:IMO the $30 wheels even the playing field.
Only for those who have $30 to spend. I've got Cubs on scholarship/full fundraising support with donated uniforms and whose families are or have faced foreclosure. And the point is that the level playing field should be the kits themselves, even though there is some variance in quality control.

I think after race season is over I'm going to buy a couple of cars off of ebay and set about beating them consistently with nothing but BSA kits and my tools as a personal challenge to see how good I can build. We've still never built a car using wheel slots, so I think that's something I'd like for us to do.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by FatSebastian » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:25 am

TXDerbyDad wrote:I think after race season is over I'm going to buy a couple of cars off of ebay and set about beating them...
I would personally discourage you from subsidizing ebay vendors with your business. As this thread shows, ebay cars fail to provide the ultimate competition, even at the Pack level. If you want challenging competition, you might consider league racing.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by resullivan » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:33 am

$30 is highly more available to the average person than a lathe or CNC machine.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by TXDerbyDad » Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:45 am

FatSebastian wrote:
TXDerbyDad wrote:I think after race season is over I'm going to buy a couple of cars off of ebay and set about beating them...
I would personally discourage you from subsidizing ebay vendors with your business. As this thread shows, ebay cars fail to provide the ultimate competition, even at the Pack level. If you want challenging competition, you might consider league racing.
That's a solid point, as I am not a fan of that part of the hobby at all. I will say that I'm not sure if my ego could take getting crushed by you pros in league racing. :paperbag:



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by DerbyAddicted » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:08 pm

resullivan wrote:IMO the $30 wheels even the playing field.
Dumb question. Are you being sarcastic, or do the $30 wheels really make that big of a difference?



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by Scrollsawer » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:32 pm

Yes, they really do make that big of a difference.

And there are no dumb questions on DT. Only learning opportunities. :idea:

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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by TXDerbyDad » Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:09 pm

DerbyAddicted wrote:
resullivan wrote:IMO the $30 wheels even the playing field.
Dumb question. Are you being sarcastic, or do the $30 wheels really make that big of a difference?
Nope. All things being equal, machines wheels will be better because they will be more precisely shaped/dimensioned. The more severe the machining/lighter the wheel, the better the wheel will perform.



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