Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

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Rfieldbuilds
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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by Rfieldbuilds » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:30 pm

Agreed,
Additionally, pushing COM further back in car can't hurt. My sons car this year was thin hourglass style with a bit of a spoiler with the entire underside hollowed out so light would actually shine through some of it in the thin spots. I actually had room in the back of the car to go two block high and wide with tungsten, but had to only stack back compartment one high(12 blocks), and put the rest (10 or 11 I think) forward of the rear axle to get a good COM forward of the rear wheel.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by birddog » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:31 pm

Here is how I would handle it:

1. Car passed inspection, so is entitled to pack win. The cub should be given his award at the blue and gold.
2. Cub and parents should be notified that the inspectors missed something during inspection and that the wheel base needs to be corrected to run at the next level (district, council, etc, assuming they have the same wheel base rule). If car must be impounded before running at the next level, the car should be DQ'd for the next level race and the next eligible car in line should be qualified.

Had the inspectors actually found the problem at inspection time, the cub and parent would have been given a chance to fix their wheel base. Since they were not offered that option, it is too late to do anything now.

birddog



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by resullivan » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:51 pm

Are the same rules used at council?



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by Rfieldbuilds » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:09 pm

Best of my knowledge,
Same rules in district and council. The rules I referred to bale (T-3 & T-4) were copied and pasted from our district rules. I too agree after the fact and tear down inspections diminish the sport.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by resullivan » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:17 pm

It will most likely not be eligible. It might be best to put it in outlaw for that purpose.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by Rfieldbuilds » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:27 pm

Yes,
That is the plan, if that is what the scout chooses to do.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by TXDerbyDad » Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:26 am

I do not envy you. I was here last year, though ours was a clear cut case of using cars that were bought off ebay that we were later able to prove after the race was over, but not during check-in. We erred on the side of caution and let the boys race, but continued to investigate.

What is the purpose of the axle slot rule? Even the in-box instructions say that sometimes the slots may be messed up and you have to modify them to get them perfectly parallel to each other, including possibly cutting new ones. If someone gets a block with a serious cant (it's been a few years, but I saw one that was noticeable with the naked eye before and many that are detectable with a square), how does the Scout deal with that? It's wood and these are not precision cut to begin with. As both an amateur woodworker and machinist, it's the imperfection of wood that drives me nuts over metal. My point is that the rules should have a purpose, and sometimes I wonder about the purpose of some of the ones I read. Ours are designed to keep Derby from being an arms race where whoever spends the most money wins and the dads build the fastest cars without the boys, as that's not what we want or the point of the event. The race isn't really even the point of the event; it simply caps it off. Rigid rules usually seem to have the intent of leveling the playing field, but most times they are just really onerous and shortsighted.

Derby, like all Cub Scout events, is designed to further the Purposes of Scouting, and you should be familiar with them if you're a part of the Pack. You need to think about this situation and how to handle it while furthering those Purposes. Ideally, no matter how you handle it, is that you start with sitting down with the parent and scout to talk about the situation before you decide on a final course of action. You're starting in the wrong place if you don't start there, and it will be detrimental to your Pack. Secondly, it was a failure on the check-in crew to catch the issue, and that's on them. But you also have a duty to the Scouts who built their cars within the rules and maybe didn't do as well. The rules establish a baseline for that level playing field I keep talking about, and one boy competed at an advantage by not following them. You have to weigh letting the violation of the rules stand and showing the other boys that not following the rules is OK if they don't get caught (bad example), or you tell the Scout that he got to race and did a great job, but he won outside of the rules in a way that may have given him an unfair advantage and it's unfair to the other boys who followed the rules. Personally, I'd go with that second option, and frankly I've had to do this before. My advice is no matter how you proceed, do it discreetly.

I can also tell you that if you have any "derby dads" in the Pack, he or they noticed the car's wheelbase was off and has probably already started talking about it to others. This is a bad thing for Pack morale and cohesion. We had a lot of parents upset at our derby cheaters last year, and they were more than happy to let us know. Thankfully, we told them we didn't have proof and therefore erred on letting the boys race, but would continue investigating. It was a few hours after the race that we found the smoking gun that showed they cheated and violated the Pack rules, and we voided their placing because of it after speaking with the adults involved, who admitted to several rule violations, but not the one we were accusing them of: using purchased cars from ebay, which is specifically not allowed in our rules. We tried to handle it discreetly and come up with a solution that made everyone happy, but it got out of hand quickly, and ultimately we opted for the greater good of the Scouts as a unit and the Program.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by DerbyAddicted » Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:49 am

This topic is extremely interesting and topical for me. We had our Derby Saturday, and as I was bringing the cars for the Web IIs over, I noticed one had an extended wheelbase (our rules stated between 4 1/2 and 4 3/4) and this one was obviously over (about 6 1/2" on a dogbone body). I brought this to the attention of our Cubmaster, who said it passed inspection and it was going to race. Once again, prior to the Web II race starting, I approached him about it a second time. I figured it would be easier to address prior to the races than after (much like an NFL challenge). He was intent on letting it race. The car won every one of it's races. When I took the cars back to the table, I mentioned to the person doing check-in that he let an illegal car in. After the Web II races, the boy was DQ'd (with tears). Not sure why the Cubmaster reversed his original decision. Not sure if someone else spoke to him, or after he saw the car win all it's races he felt differently.

I have really mixed feelings on this topic. Part of me doesn't see how you can allow an obvious, illegal car to race, whether it's passed inspection or not. On the other hand, I think it's [crummy] to DQ someone after their races, especially on a technicality when they no longer have the ability to rectify the situation. Also, if you have the "no DQ after inspection" rule, it almost encourages cheating.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by FatSebastian » Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:18 pm

:welcome: DerbyAddicted!
DerbyAddicted wrote:I have really mixed feelings on this topic.
The boy's parent/Akela must shoulder some of the blame in these situations. Most boys do not think to extend the wheelbase on their own. A fast car is usually the result of adult research and guidance, and limitations in the rule set are likely to be obvious to an ambitious parent. In DerbyAddiced's case especially, the parent of a 2nd-year Webelo is likely to have sufficient experience with the local build restrictions.

Perhaps the lesson of this topic is to remove rules that will not be enforced? Disallowing a change of wheelbase seems like a somewhat arbitrary restriction anyway.
DerbyAddicted wrote:Also, if you have the "no DQ after inspection" rule, it almost encourages cheating.
:scratching: Why?



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by DerbyAddicted » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:05 pm

Our rules were a little more generous this year. In previous years, we were only allowed to use stock slots. I think the scout in question may be a first year scout even though he's a Web II. I doubt he/Akela were intentionally cheating. I assume someone just didn't pay attention to the rules (even though they were distributed with the car and emailed several times). And his car was the fastest of his Den, but we're not a very competitive pack. I'm pretty sure if he had been admitted to the finals, my sons car would have beat him.

I think that the reason "no DQ after inspection" rule encourages cheating is because it removes the risk. If you get caught, you just fix it. If you don't get caught, then you have an advantage. Originally, we were going to bend our axles and taper the heads. But one of the rules stated, "Nail axles must retain their original basic shape and size, no alterations of the axles may be made other than polishing." Because I didn't want to risk a DQ after the races, so we went with the strictest interpretation of the rule.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by TXDerbyDad » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:14 pm

FatSebastian wrote:
DerbyAddicted wrote:Also, if you have the "no DQ after inspection" rule, it almost encourages cheating.
:scratching: Why?
Because once you're past inspection, there is no risk. It's the reason why NASCAR has inspects cars before and after races, and cheaters always get caught afterwards. Before the race, the car can be corrected, and everything is fine, but afterwards they already competed at an unfair advantage.

Here's a hypothetical, built around two actual situations I've witnessed, though modified to show my point.

Let's say your rules allow drilling axle holes, but don't allow modified axles. Unfortunately, without pulling the axles, you can't check, but you take it on face value that they're from the BSA kit and they're normal. Your race is a best 3 out of 4 runs averaged to determine place. One car dominates, and on its fourth run it flies off the track, the car breaks, and a modified axle with relief spots is exposed for everyone to see. The car clearly passed inspection, but you now have proof it was winning because of cheating, and everyone can see it.

What do you do?



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by gpraceman » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:23 pm

DerbyAddicted wrote:I think that the reason "no DQ after inspection" rule encourages cheating is because it removes the risk. If you get caught, you just fix it. If you don't get caught, then you have an advantage. Originally, we were going to bend our axles and taper the heads. But one of the rules stated, "Nail axles must retain their original basic shape and size, no alterations of the axles may be made other than polishing." Because I didn't want to risk a DQ after the races, so we went with the strictest interpretation of the rule.
Personally, I think that it's the check-in judge's responsibility to catch an illegal car. If something slips by them, then it should race. Will that really encourage cheating? Maybe if the check-in inspection is traditionally lax. Otherwise, I don't think so. In my experience, a car not passing inspection was usually due to ignorance of the rules, not deliberate cheating. Catching a problem at check-in is far more likely to result in the issue being addressed successfully, so the car can race.

So, what is really the root cause of the issue? Poorly trained check-in judge? Check-in judge wasn't paying close enough attention? Check-in judge wasn't being consistent? Confusing rules? To me, that's what the discussion should be about. Once you determine the root cause, work towards addressing that issue for next year's race.


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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by gpraceman » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:25 pm

TXDerbyDad wrote:Because once you're past inspection, there is no risk. It's the reason why NASCAR has inspects cars before and after races, and cheaters always get caught afterwards. Before the race, the car can be corrected, and everything is fine, but afterwards they already competed at an unfair advantage.
NASCAR is an adult race. I do think that we need to do things a bit differently for a kids race.
TXDerbyDad wrote:Here's a hypothetical, built around two actual situations I've witnessed, though modified to show my point.

Let's say your rules allow drilling axle holes, but don't allow modified axles. Unfortunately, without pulling the axles, you can't check, but you take it on face value that they're from the BSA kit and they're normal. Your race is a best 3 out of 4 runs averaged to determine place. One car dominates, and on its fourth run it flies off the track, the car breaks, and a modified axle with relief spots is exposed for everyone to see. The car clearly passed inspection, but you now have proof it was winning because of cheating, and everyone can see it.

What do you do?
Any rule that you cannot verify with a non-destructive inspection, is a bad rule and should be thrown out.


Randy Lisano
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Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.

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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by FatSebastian » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:30 pm

DerbyAddicted wrote:I doubt he/Akela were intentionally cheating.
Thanks for the added info. To say that the parent must shoulder some of the blame was not to say that there was an intention to cheat. Rather, the guidance of Akela should ensure that the car gets through inspection.
DerbyAddicted wrote:If you get caught, you just fix it. If you don't get caught, then you have an advantage.
Oh, I get it. In the context of an incorrect wheelbase, that is something that is easily noticed but not "just fixed" in the pits, so I did not see the incentive. Regardless, IMO honest people are not "almost encouraged" to cheat by a lack of re-inspection policy. Trying to "fix" a car in the pits often undoes its competitiveness; personally, we'd want a "legal" car so as to make it through inspection without modification and would not find the lack of a re-inspection rule tempting.
Last edited by FatSebastian on Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Pack overall winner found to have violated rules

Post by gpraceman » Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:35 pm

For the wheelbase issue specifically, a Go/No-Go Gauge can easily be made to check for that. Just a simple board with wheel recesses cut into in. If all of the wheels don't sit down into the recesses then it fails that check. That makes it a clear cut issue for everyone involved.


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Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.

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