Scioto Valley Districts 2005

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PinewoodPerformance
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Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by PinewoodPerformance »

Here is what I am planning on doing...

Running a 42' x 3 lane Aluminium Besttrack.

Each kid gets a guarenteed 6 races, 2 in each lane. Then take the top XX ammount of cars and running a double elimination race.

I am thinking about running it this way for the pack as well. I know a lot of you guys do not like the double elimination, but I think with adding a guarenteed 6 races, it gives our kids as many races as they had last year, plus a few more.

Ideas? Imput? Help?
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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by Darin McGrew »

PinewoodPerformance wrote:Each kid gets a guarenteed 6 races, 2 in each lane. Then take the top XX ammount of cars and running a double elimination race.
How are you planning to determine the "top XX" cars?

Why double elimination? Are you only awarding 2 awards?
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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

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I figured, depending on the amount of entries, the top 20-30%. Double elimination in my opinion crowns a true winner if you apply the brackets correctly, I don't like a winner based on times because #1 and #2 may never meet, the top 4 will get trophies for their places...
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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by Darin McGrew »

PinewoodPerformance wrote:I figured, depending on the amount of entries, the top 20-30%.
What I meant was, how are you going to determine who the top 20-30% are? Times? Points?
PinewoodPerformance wrote:Double elimination in my opinion crowns a true winner if you apply the brackets correctly, I don't like a winner based on times because #1 and #2 may never meet, the top 4 will get trophies for their places...
Double elimination can award first and second place accurately. Anything else is a [junk] shoot. And it doesn't accomodate slow/fast lanes or other irregularities at all.

I'd take the top 7 finalists and use a CPN chart to determine the awards. Each finalist races every other finalist, and each pair of finalists races twice, with the lanes reversed the second time.
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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by davekelly »

Perhaps have each car run twice in each lane. Then have the top howevermany based on time (kind of like qualifying) go into a double elimination final.
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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by Darin McGrew »

davekelly wrote:Perhaps have each car run twice in each lane. Then have the top howevermany based on time (kind of like qualifying) go into a double elimination final.
As long as you're awarding only two trophies, and you don't care about the differences between lanes, that works just fine.
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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by davekelly »

Oops. Darin, you're right. I guess what I was meaning to say is that in order to have x percentage race for the trophies you could use total time as sort of a qualifying and take the top whatever from that and then have them run some sort of elimination deal. I've never followed the numerous methods that are out there on which method generates the most accurate results.

Our pack uses a total time format. Each car races the same number of times in each lanes - the least total elapsed time wins. Each heat is set up using the times from the heat before - the result being that as more and more heats are run, the closer and closer the races get. By the last heat the crowd really gets into it as nearly every race is neck and neck. Very few boys get blown away each time and you'll even see boys who's cars were the slowest talking smack about how close their last heat was.
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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by gpraceman »

darin_mcgrew wrote:I'd take the top 7 finalists and use a CPN chart to determine the awards. Each finalist races every other finalist, and each pair of finalists races twice, with the lanes reversed the second time.
I would second that recommendation. This will be a better way to crown your winners and keep all of the finalists in the running until the last heat is run.
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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by Scoremaker »

Thats a good idea to let them race 3 times get there total times. But if you want to run a double elimination race use the two outside lanes. Then do a best out of three race then changes lanes each time. So if the car that won on lane 1 then it gets to race on lane 2 the car that lost goes to lane 1. Then if that car lost again he goes into the losser bracket. Each Scout gets a total of 7 races. Also if you want to find out the true winner do what the NCAA Basketball Tournament does in there Brackets.
1v16
8v9
5v12
4v13
6v11
3v14
7v10
2v15
You might want to do two Brackets system. On this web page go to Scheduling Methods.Look for A Scheduling Method that needs help. Two years ago my son went to a Council Race with a 8 lane track.They race run one time on each lane and total there times up. Put them in the Bracket system there where 13 cars so there was and odd number of cars racing. So the number 1 car race the number 2 car and so on.The last place car was put into the losser bracket. The system they did was telling the boys that the bottom part of the Bracket system the cars where faster than the top 6 cars. Good luck doing your District race.
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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

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I forgot to clarify something, in the races for times, where each scout races twice in each lane, the top 3 (lowest) times for each scout group would then win trophies, the double elimination would be for the top 4 grand champions, 4 kids would bring home 2 trophies. We would also run a Open Class that is not included in the tourney. I like the NCAA brackets concept, especially if we have a good turn out and can do a final 32 cars, I actually like that better than the double elimination, I am not too concearned with 3rd and 4th since we are awarding trophies for both spots, if you got beat by number one your third and if you got beat by number 2 your fourth, perhaps they should race off
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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by gpraceman »

One thing worse than double elimination is single elimination. That is what the NCAA brackets are. My $0.02 worth.
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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by Scoremaker »

If you use the NCAA Bracket it would not be a single elimination format. It would be a Double elimination round. There's a chart in the Scheduling methods look for Scheduling fromat needs help.
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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

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After talking to a few people and reading what you have posted I think I am going to use Stan's 16 car double elimination chart for the top 4 cars. http://members.aol.com/StanDCmr/dechart.html the more I play it out in my head the more I like it. I figure every kid gets 6 races, that's not bad for districts. two kids will get 12 and the top 16 cars will get at least 8 races...

I have never used any pinewood derby software, will it help me with what cars go in what lanes and what cars are up, on deck and in the hole? High School Football is 5 weeks from being over for us so I am trying to start to get this all together now.

Here is another question, in the final 16 should I take the fastest 16 cars by time, or the top 4 from the 4 divisions?
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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by gpraceman »

PinewoodPerformance wrote:After talking to a few people and reading what you have posted I think I am going to use Stan's 16 car double elimination chart for the top 4 cars. http://members.aol.com/StanDCmr/dechart.html the more I play it out in my head the more I like it.
Stan Pope wrote:So, if I must use a Double Elimination procedure, I "grit my teeth" and use this one!
Seems like if Stan has to grit his teeth to use this method that there are better alternatives, which I know there are. My question is why even do a double elimination race? How are you going to address the lane equity issue? I do not think that you will be able to find software that runs that specific type of double elim chart to manage it for you.
Scoremaker wrote:If you use the NCAA Bracket it would not be a single elimination format. It would be a Double elimination round. There's a chart in the Scheduling methods look for Scheduling fromat needs help.
I may not be that hip on basketball, but when I look at the brackets, I do not see how this is anything but single elimination. http://cbs.sportsline.com/collegebasket ... ewable_men
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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by PinewoodPerformance »

I don't need software to run a double elimination, it's a simple chart. However I am aware that that software is available. Yours just isn't capable.

Also, I don't know of any other way of racing all the cars fairly to get to a qualifying round, then letting them square off against each other, I think it's a great idea, it's simple to follow and the kids all get to race a lot.
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