Scioto Valley Districts 2005

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gpraceman
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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by gpraceman » Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:50 am

PinewoodPerformance wrote:However I am aware that that software is available. Yours just isn't capable.
It is not a capability issue. I choose not to support elimination methods, so I have not designed it into the software.

In the end it is up to what will work best for a race. Hopefully, the issues are taken into account and alternatives looked at so that an informed decision is made so the race will be as fair as can be to the racers. That is all that I am trying to bring up.


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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by PinewoodPerformance » Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:34 am

after rereading my post, I didn't mean it the way you might have taken it. Your software is not capable of running double elimination, I have access to your software, but I was just trying to point out that others do have that capability.

Again, I just like to see everyone get to race, and those who qualify get to go into a second race more or less, it's the best of both worlds!


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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by Darin McGrew » Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:43 am

PinewoodPerformance wrote:Also, I don't know of any other way of racing all the cars fairly to get to a qualifying round, then letting them square off against each other, I think it's a great idea, it's simple to follow and the kids all get to race a lot.
Why not use a simple CPN chart for the finals? There are CPN charts for different numbers of lanes, and for different numbers of entrants. Pick one that works for you, and all the finalists get to race against each other, and each pair of finalists races twice, with the lanes reversed the second time.

It's a lot more fair than a DE chart, and should be just as much fun.



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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by PinewoodPerformance » Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:50 am

what is a simple CPN chart? I would be willing to look at it, but I want everyone to see the clear winner by who wins and not a bunch of numbers, if that makes sense, in a double elimination if you win, and you continue to win, then you win, how is this not fair?


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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by Stan Pope » Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:16 am

PinewoodPerformance wrote:what is a simple CPN chart? I would be willing to look at it, but I want everyone to see the clear winner by who wins and not a bunch of numbers, if that makes sense, in a double elimination if you win, and you continue to win, then you win, how is this not fair?
"CPN" (Complementary Perfect N) is one type of Young&Pope chart. In addition to full lane and opponent equality, CPN charts have all lane matchups repeated with cars reversed ... Rather like a double round robin match.

The biggest benefit is that CPN helps negate the effect of lane differences while maintaining head-to-head racing.

Are you concerned with "Fair" or with "Accurate"? Properly conducted, double elimination can be very "fair". As lane differences increase, the results from double elimination more closely approach the "accuracy" of random chance, i.e. flip of a fair coin for lane assignment. Even the complicated "best 2 out of 3 heats" at each step in a DE reduce to chance if the lane differences exceed the car differences. So, yes, DE is (can be) fair, but it can hide its lack of accuracy in the random lane assignments.

My preference is first to be absolutely fair to every competitor, i.e. results determined by the Cub (his skill in staging the car), the car (its ability to run quickly down the track), and chance (randomness). and not by any arbitrary decisions by track officials. Better yet, the method choice should be fair and accurate, i.e. results determined by the Cub and the car, and not by chance or any arbitrary decisions by track officials.

Oops! Soapbox mode off!


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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by Sylvar » Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:18 am

PP, the method would be fair only if ALL lanes were equal. That is the crux. The second or third (or more depending on the quality of cars that show up) fastest car can beat the fastest car if the the fastest car gets the slow lane and the slower car gets the better lane. I have seen it many times. Even happened to my son last year. Difference being in his race he got another chance to match up with that car with a different lane match up.

If you aren't trying to account for lane variation then the method is not as "Fair" as other methods that do.

Shane



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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by PinewoodPerformance » Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:31 am

I was thinking of having lane numbers in a hat and let the cubs pick them, a coin is a good idea too though, to me the DE is less complicated


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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by davekelly » Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:39 am

Picking lane's from a hat or having the cubs pick them defeats the accuracy or the goal of having "the fastest car" win. It is very likely that the truly fastest car could get the slow lane pick each time. Double elimination also runs that risk depending on the variances between the lanes. I've not followed the various methods of matching up cars/lanes for elimination type events (we do total elapsed time), but it seems that accuracy increases the more times each cars races on each lane. If you do a search of the various topics posted on the forum you will see some very thought out schemes. There are also many posts where the various schemes have been critiqued for accuracy. Each has their own pros and cons (accuracy, number of heats necessary, number of boys who will be knocked out early etc etc). The best thing to do is to mock up a derby using the various methods and see which will help you accomplish your goals.


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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by PinewoodPerformance » Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:49 am

I want several things for sure..

1. Total time out of 2 races in each lane = top 3 in each division place

3. Top percentage of cars go head to head so everyone can see the winner - not be made to wait to see who's time is slower


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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by Scoremaker » Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:38 pm

After each Boy Scouts race one time on each lane get there total times. But make sure you race all the Scouts at the same time when you do the time trails. So you can have all them racing in the Brackets system at the same time. Then whoever has the top time he's is Rank #1 than so on. You can also split the Scouts into rank like Tigers,Wolfs,Bears and Weblos 1&2 can race togther in the same Bracket system. Then put them into the Bracket system then you will have four brackets system.



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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by Stan Pope » Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:49 pm

PinewoodPerformance wrote:I want several things for sure..

1. Total time out of 2 races in each lane = top 3 in each division place
Would you expand on this? ... not sure of what the method is or to whom applied.

What is #2?
PinewoodPerformance wrote:3. Top percentage of cars go head to head so everyone can see the winner - not be made to wait to see who's time is slower
This needs discussion ... how many "top cars" are involved? Is there any "apparent ranking" of the cars going into this finals? How much should the "apparent ranking" affect the final outcome? Since top cars tend to be very closely matched, are you willing to allow lane draw, with one or the other seen to win the heat, determine the result?

A possible alternative here is to make it two runs in quick succession on alternating lanes, allowing audience to see the magnitude of the split (if, in fact, the two cars each win a heat). The audience perception can be backed up by sum of heat times, if needed. Example: racing in lanes 2 and 3 (the most evenly matched lanes on this track at this time) Johnny wins over Joey by 1 inch when he runs lane 2, and Joey wins over Johnny by 2 inches when he runs in lane 2. Audience conclusion: Joey's car is the winner???


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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by davekelly » Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:02 pm

Pinewood,

Bet you thought this was a pretty simple question to answer when you first posted it. lol.


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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by RMoose » Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:14 pm

Pinewood,
Here's another idea to kick around. In your initial round you could award points, say 3 for 1st, 2 for 2nd, 1 for 3rd. The boys with the top points totals in each group advance to the final round. This way, you advance based on winning races, not "beating the clock" which seems to be an important goal for you.
Then, in your final round, if you are planning to give awards for the top 4 finishers, I would suggest you consider the "No-Chart" Multiple Elimination method described on Stan's site or a similar 4E method. Just like 2E, it involves winning races to advance.
We ran our church race using this method last year and it worked very well. I felt fairly confident using this method that the fastest cars got the top awards. I do not have that conficence with 2E, especially if you give awards for more than first & second place.

For example, last year in the Association race, the 1st place car from our church race placed out of the running for awards, while our 3rd place car finished third at the association also. Looking over the charts after the race, I saw that our 1st place car had lost to the eventual 1st & 2nd place cars well before the "medal round" races. Our 3rd place car lost to the eventual winner and then did not run into the eventual 2nd place car until the final race in the losers bracket, thereby earning 3rd place. There is no way to know if he was really the third fastest car or not, the mechanics of a 2E chart could just as easily explain his performance! :?:


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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by davekelly » Tue Sep 28, 2004 11:56 pm

There is one thing I've noticed about several posts here that discuss the pros and cons of the various elimination set ups. The concern is - does the fastest car get 1st place? An elimination type competition does not award the fastest car - it awards the car that has compiled the best win-loss record against a series of competitors. Just like the team that scores the most runs does not automatically win the world series. Conceivably, the fastest car could be eliminated by losing to two cars that for one reason or another had an exceptional heat, but who's other heats were only mediocre. It seems to me that if you want the fastest car (fast being defined as the car that covers the distance in the least amount of time) to get the first place trophy, the elapsed time system is the way to go. If you want the car that ammasses the best win/loss record to get first then a form of elimination is best.


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Re: Scioto Valley Districts 2005

Post by Stan Pope » Wed Sep 29, 2004 12:05 am

RM,

That plan is a variation of the 2-stage plan that I described on my website at http://members.aol.com/standcmr/pwmevalc.html. The focus of the page is demonstrating the relative accuracies of the methods.

For a large group with potential for walk-in registration and for late arrivals, I like to run the whole thing with no-chart multiple elim. The method is exceptionally adaptive to a "disturbance" such as "Johnny's momma got lost (dads never get lost, of course, they just "take the scenic route") and Johnny didn't arrive until after the cars had run a round and a half. Charted methods (that I've seen) choke on adding a competitor part way through ... no-chart let's em in with a loss recorded for each missed round ... one loss in the case mentioned.


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