Legality of PWD car with 1/25th scale model body

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ah8tk
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Legality of PWD car with 1/25th scale model body

Post by ah8tk » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:44 am

I know most DerbyTalkers are involved with the running of their individual derbies. For those with rule creation and inspection experience, this question is for you. If you have no expertise in this I also would like to hear what you think.

If a scout came in with a car made from a 1/25th scale model car body connected to a pinewood plank, would you classify this car as legal within your rules?

The body is simply a decoration that is attached to the PWD frame.

The car in question would fit within the standard pinewood derby measurements (7” [L] X 2 3/4" [W] X 3 1/2" [H] and have the standard (4 3/8”) wheelbase. The cars length could be shorter than 7” (6 3/8”). The wheelbase may be slightly moved rearward.

If you think this would be legal in your race can you quote the parts of your rules that would allow, or disallow this car.



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Re: Legality of PWD car with 1/25th scale model body

Post by Vitamin K » Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:50 am

It would pass the letter of our rules, so long as it fit within the desired dimensions and the axles were set into an actual wood chassis.

I would hope that the appearance judges would pass it over, however. :)



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Re: Legality of PWD car with 1/25th scale model body

Post by Speedster » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:18 am

Many, many years ago we had this very thing happen. The man bought a plastic model of a Nascar racer. It passed whatever Pack he was in and it passed our District judges. He had won at Pack for Best Design. He allowed me to check all the dimensions and the wheelbase was off 1/4". We require the stock wheelbase of 4 3/8". I told him the car was illegal because the wheelbase was not accurate. His reply, "Oh, it's just a 1/4 inch". Apparently the judges felt the same way or weren't bothering to measure wheelbase. Had the wheelbase been accurate the car would have been legal under our rules.



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Re: Legality of PWD car with 1/25th scale model body

Post by FatSebastian » Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:11 am

ah8tk wrote:If you think this would be legal in your race can you quote the parts of your rules that would allow, or disallow this car.
As long as it within the dimensional specifications, there is nothing under our local rules to forbid it based on your description. Similarly...

"Any details added must be within length, width, and weight limits." Cub Scout Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Guidebook

"Details... are permissible as long as these details do not exceed the maximum length, width and weight specifications." Rules from the box



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Re: Legality of PWD car with 1/25th scale model body

Post by birddog » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:08 pm

Our rules would allow such a car as long as it conformed with all the normal weight and size specifications.

The specific part of our rules that addresses this is copied below:

5. Details such as steering wheel, driver, fenders, decals or painting are allowed, as long as these details do not cause the car to exceed the maximum weight, length and width. Details made of plastic are allowed.

As long as the pinewood body was there, I'd consider the plastic portion of the body a "detail".

birddog



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Re: Legality of PWD car with 1/25th scale model body

Post by Darin McGrew » Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:34 pm

ah8tk wrote:If a scout came in with a car made from a 1/25th scale model car body connected to a pinewood plank, would you classify this car as legal within your rules?
Yes, such a car would be legal in our derby, assuming the plastic model body is securely attached, and that it met the other rules (see below). And yes, we've had a few cars that have used plastic model bodies attached to wood slabs, or that have used parts from a plastic model to accessorize a carved derby car body.
ah8tk wrote:The body is simply a decoration that is attached to the PWD frame.
Exactly. The plastic car body is simply decoration. We don't restrict the materials used for decoration.
ah8tk wrote:The cars length could be shorter than 7” (6 3/8”). The wheelbase may be slightly moved rearward.
Shorter cars are not a problem. I've never seen a set of derby rules that would prohibit a car design that isn't the full length of the original block.

And we don't restrict the wheelbase much.
ah8tk wrote:If you think this would be legal in your race can you quote the parts of your rules that would allow, or disallow this car.
Okay... Here are our complete rules, with the parts I think are relevant in boldface:
  • The maximum weight is 5.0 ounces (142 grams).
  • Except for adhesives, lubricants, weights, and decorations, you must build your car with the block, wheels, and axles from the original Shape N Race Derby kit. Weights and decorations must be securely attached. Therefore, the following are examples of prohibited items: motors, rubber bands, springs, starting devices, bearings, bushings, washers, skids/runners, non-CSB wheels, non-CSB axles, and wet paint.
  • The original wheels and axles cannot be reshaped, although manufacturing irregularities (e.g., sprue, flash) can be removed.
  • All cars must fit our track and must not interfere with the start gate, the finish gate, or any other cars. Keep the following in mind if your design is at all unusual:
    • Maximum Height: 5½ inches (top of car), 2 inches (nose of car)
    • Maximum Length: 6½ inches (nose to rear axle)
    • Maximum Width: 2¾ inches (axle head to axle head), 3¼ inches (overall)
    • Minimum Width: 1¾ inches (body width at axles)



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Re: Legality of PWD car with 1/25th scale model body

Post by Speedster » Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:52 am

Would the minimum width rule make a rail rider illegal because of narrowing the block 1/16" ?



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Re: Legality of PWD car with 1/25th scale model body

Post by Vitamin K » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:55 am

Speedster wrote:Would the minimum width rule make a rail rider illegal because of narrowing the block 1/16" ?
I saw this question come up on another forum, and I thought it was a pretty worthy point of discussion. I've actually made a push to modify our Pack's rules regarding width-at-axles and ground clearance to be recommended values, as opposed to hard and fast rules. By my reckoning, if your car is too narrow/low to run on the track without sticking on the guiderail, then you've shot your own self in the foot.

That said, it's possible that some people might deliberately want to ban rail-riding mods, and might seek to impose a specific width at the axles to intentionally prevent narrowing. There appear to be two possible solutions to this:

First solution: Simply don't narrow it. From what I understand, you can still make a perfectly good rail rider and keep your rears off the rail without the narrowed front end, especially if you've got a lot of bend in your DFW axle. I'd love to see some experimentation done to this end.

Second solution: Take the rules literally, but get creative. If the rules measure the width at the car at the axles, then simply shift the front axle entirely. A clever gent on another forum pointed this out, and I thought it was brilliant.

Image

Also discussed was the possibility of not only shifting the front end over, but rotating as well, which might be a way to achieve front-end cant without having to bend your axles at all (adjusting toe might get tricky, though perhaps you could use shims of some kind). Again, would love to see more experimentation along these lines. :)



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Re: Legality of PWD car with 1/25th scale model body

Post by Darin McGrew » Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:29 pm

Speedster wrote:Would the minimum width rule make a rail rider illegal because of narrowing the block 1/16" ?
In our derby, the key rule is "must fit our track and must not interfere". The rest is just clarification for people doing anything unusual. If a car still fit the track after the block was narrowed for rail riding, then it would race.



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