Envelope inspection

General race coordinator discussions.
knotthed
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Envelope inspection

Post by knotthed » Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:59 pm

I just went to Max V to look at the clear box that checks the size of the car and noticed that it is no longer there.

Can anyone speak to their experience with them and or the new design offered?

I suspect the old design allowed the car to actually be longer than 7" by a little, based on a car participating in a race that used one and then having to get modified for another race that used something different that would not allow it to be longer. It was probably about 1/8" to long.

Thoughts on the new one? Does anyone have one, that can verify that it will not pass anything over 7?



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Re: Envelope inspection

Post by bracketracer » Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:46 pm

I went to a race with a coworker. His daughter's car was checked in using the old style Max-V box. It appeared to fit the car snugly and I know that car was spot on 7". I don't believe you would have got the door shut on 7 1/8" unless someone had broke out the start pin?
I liked that design of box, so much so that I have three of them for our pack race check in table. Haven't tried the new design Max-V has now so I can't comment on how well it works.



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Re: Envelope inspection

Post by ah8tk » Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:50 am

These inspection gauges are manufactured by Randy (GPRaceman), the creator of DerbyTalk, you can see them here:
http://grandprix-software-central.com/c ... gory_id=32
Maybe he can speak to the changes.



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Re: Envelope inspection

Post by gpraceman » Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:04 pm

ah8tk wrote:These inspection gauges are manufactured by Randy (GPRaceman), the creator of DerbyTalk.
Yes, that is correct. We do wholesale our gauges to other derby merchants, like MaxV.
ah8tk wrote:Maybe he can speak to the changes.
The new design does all of the same checks that the old design did, including the 7" length check. Of course, all manufacturing has tolerances. These gauges (old and new design) are built to +/-1/32" in any dimension. I'd have a hard time believing one that would allow a 7-1/8" car pass.

The new design does have a couple of advantages over the old design.

1) It can be folded up for more compact storage.

2) The height checker is adjustable (3", 4" or 5"). Many rules just use a 3" height limit. Likely that was originally specified to ensure cars made it under the finish timer. These days, most timers allow for more clearance than that. For our Awana club's race, we allow cars up to 5" tall, as the timer has the clearance. The old gauge design did not allow for anything over 3", so we had to remove the height checker from the gauge and measure height with a ruler. Allowing for taller cars allows for greater design flexibility, especially for those going for cool designs, so we wanted to accommodate that with our new gauge design.


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Re: Envelope inspection

Post by Noskills » Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:17 pm

Will a car that is say 3/8th to 1/2 in over 7 in still fit on the average starting gate?
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Re: Envelope inspection

Post by gpraceman » Sat Jan 03, 2015 11:50 pm

Noskills wrote:Will a car that is say 3/8th to 1/2 in over 7 in still fit on the average starting gate?
Noskills
Likely so. However, the higher up the COG is, the more potential energy it has. A longer car allows for the COG to be pushed higher. However, typical rules specify a 7" length limit, so racers can only push the COG so high.

What is interesting is that the first ever PWD had a 7-3/4" limit. So, why did it change to 7"'? Was it due to track dimensions? BSA wanted to get more kits out of the wood stock? Some other reason?


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Re: Envelope inspection

Post by ah8tk » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:17 pm

gpraceman wrote:What is interesting is that the first ever PWD had a 7-3/4" limit. So, why did it change to 7"'? Was it due to track dimensions? BSA wanted to get more kits out of the wood stock? Some other reason?
The original, October 1954, Boys Life specs say “overall length shall not exceed 7 3/8”

Image

The current kits are essentially the same size (7” X 1 1/4" [instead of 1 3/8”] X 1 3/4") as the original (1956 – 1977) kit, just turned 90 degrees. See drawing below:

Image

It is the wheels, that were placed forward of the block, that makes the 7 3/8” dimension. Once they got rid of the wheel blocks they could change to 7”

Andy



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Re: Envelope inspection

Post by gpraceman » Sun Jan 04, 2015 8:24 pm

ah8tk wrote:The original, October 1954, Boys Life specs say “overall length shall not exceed 7 3/8”
Page 17 of "The Story of the Pinewood Derby", detailing the first PWD, lists the race rules with the maximum length being 7-3/4".


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Re: Envelope inspection

Post by ah8tk » Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:12 pm

Here a Boys’ Life article from November of 1973 (about the time I was racing as a Wolf) that also says 7 3/8”. Maybe the original race was 7 3/4", but all of the Boys’ Life references I have found are 7 3/8”.

Image

This was originally posted here.



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Re: Envelope inspection

Post by gpraceman » Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:16 am

I'm not sure if you are trying to argue a point or not. The first ever PWD race was May 15, 1953 by Pack 280C in Manhattan Beach, CA. Don Murphy, the Cubmaster for that pack, is credited with being the founder of PWD.

The first race predates that Boy's Life article. It wasn't until after that first race that BSA adopted PWD as an official event. I'm not sure what lead to the 7-3/8" length. Then at some point BSA changed it to 7". Reason also unknown.


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Re: Envelope inspection

Post by knotthed » Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:55 pm

OK, I went back at looked at a picture I took of the car with a 7" rule on the bottom of it.

While it was most likely not an 1/8" it was at least a 1/16".

I have always considered the 7" max to be the max, do others think there is some acceptable value over or around that 7" number?

My initial concern was the area where the door fastened to the frame with the screws allowing some overage(perhaps with wear). Now it looks like the new design (very nice that it folds up) may offer 2 of these interfaces to possibly increase the variability.

Does anyone have any well used old versions to see if they allow greater than 7"?



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Re: Envelope inspection

Post by gpraceman » Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:15 pm

knotthed wrote:I have always considered the 7" max to be the max, do others think there is some acceptable value over or around that 7" number?
Would you disqualify a car that was 1/16" or even 1/32" over the 7"? Personally, I would not. The likelihood of that small mount of extra car length affecting the outcome of the race is pretty minute. I do think that the check-in judges should be able to show some discretion in enforcing the rules, as long as they are consistent with that for all cars.

While we would love to be able to produce a gauge that is dimensionally perfect and not subject to wear and tear. That is not the real world. The important point is that everyone at a particular race is being measured by the same gauge, so they are being held to the same standard. Where I could see an issue is with a car passing at a local race and not an upper level race. Of course, there can be variances between gauges, weight scales and any other measurement device/gauge used during check-in inspection between different races. There is no way around that possibility, but such variances should be very minor.


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Re: Envelope inspection

Post by ah8tk » Tue Jan 06, 2015 2:52 pm

gpraceman wrote:I'm not sure if you are trying to argue a point or not. The first ever PWD race was May 15, 1953 by Pack 280C in Manhattan Beach, CA. Don Murphy, the Cubmaster for that pack, is credited with being the founder of PWD.
I was not trying to irritate, I was just giving the basis for my comments, based on the historical information I am presenting.
gpraceman wrote:The first race predates that Boy's Life article. It wasn't until after that first race that BSA adopted PWD as an official event. I'm not sure what lead to the 7-3/8" length.
I know the 7 3/8” dimension is the 7” block and the wheels hanging off the front of the block.

Image

I can't be sure what the 7 3/4" dimension includes.
gpraceman wrote:Then at some point BSA changed it to 7". Reason also unknown.
That is just the block, with the wheels inside the 7” envelope.



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Re: Envelope inspection

Post by gpraceman » Tue Jan 06, 2015 3:00 pm

The rule for overall length is what I was referring to.


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Re: Envelope inspection

Post by Stan Pope » Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:03 pm

gpraceman wrote:
knotthed wrote:I have always considered the 7" max to be the max, do others think there is some acceptable value over or around that 7" number?
Would you disqualify a car that was 1/16" or even 1/32" over the 7"? Personally, I would not. The likelihood of that small mount of extra car length affecting the outcome of the race is pretty minute. I do think that the check-in judges should be able to show some discretion in enforcing the rules, as long as they are consistent with that for all cars.
I'd recommend a variant ... if the car is "pushing the envelope" on many factors, for instance, rear wheels back as far as allowed, then I'd expect the whole car to stay within the envelope. But if the car used the slots and block length "as is", then I'd pass it.

The excess can be dealt with by rasping a bit off the front end. The techies keep almost all of their performance, and the boys who built for style keep their style.


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