In charge of 2016 track...now with results.

General race coordinator discussions.
Speedster
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Re: In charge of purchasing track and running 2016 PWD....

Post by Speedster » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:24 am

Vitamin K, I think you're Correct.

On the Extended wheelbase, some guy named Sporty claims it's easier to tune an extended wheelbase car. I think all the winning cars in the Mid America race were probably extended wheelbase if allowed.



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Re: In charge of purchasing track and running 2016 PWD....

Post by Vitamin K » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:49 am

Speedster wrote:Vitamin K, I think you're Correct.

On the Extended wheelbase, some guy named Sporty claims it's easier to tune an extended wheelbase car. I think all the winning cars in the Mid America race were probably extended wheelbase if allowed.
I can see how extending the wheelbase could make for easier tuning.

That said, I'd be interested in seeing what kind of wheelbases the Mid-America frontrunners were using. I'm pretty sure that the cars that Xanthrum and his family built were not extended.



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Re: In charge of purchasing track and running 2016 PWD....

Post by Speedster » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:16 am

From the cars I'm able to see in the photos of the 2015 Pro National Championships, all the cars have an extended wheelbase. I would be curious to know what the District rules are for this Pack. If someone is skilled enough to extend the wheelbase and is reading Derbytalk everyday, he probably is going to win with a stock wheelbase. Why give him an even bigger advantage? I think it would simply create Hard Feelings because you can see the difference. The biggest advantage a scout and his team will get is to read everything that comes on Derbytalk, learn to use the search function, buy the book, "Build A Winning Pinewood Derby Car", and then do it all. That Team is going to be hard to beat.



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Re: In charge of purchasing track and running 2016 PWD....

Post by Vitamin K » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:21 am

Speedster wrote:From the cars I'm able to see in the photos of the 2015 Pro National Championships, all the cars have an extended wheelbase. I would be curious to know what the District rules are for this Pack. If someone is skilled enough to extend the wheelbase and is reading Derbytalk everyday, he probably is going to win with a stock wheelbase. Why give him an even bigger advantage? I think it would simply create Hard Feelings because you can see the difference. The biggest advantage a scout and his team will get is to read everything that comes on Derbytalk, learn to use the search function, buy the book, "Build A Winning Pinewood Derby Car", and then do it all. That Team is going to be hard to beat.
I guess when you say 'extended', you mean 'extended beyond the stock 4.375" wheelbase'? Certainly they're wider than standard, but they aren't the full extended wheelbase cars.

As far as mods go, making a wider wheelbase seems pretty tame. Much harder to, say, tune a rail rider, or do wheel/axle prep. It also gives more creative freedom in deciding how you want the car to look.



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Re: In charge of purchasing track and running 2016 PWD....

Post by Speedster » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:39 am

VK, we'll have to open a new topic if we are going to discuss how someone wants the car to look. Not everyone is pleased with the "Best Design" category.



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Re: In charge of purchasing track and running 2016 PWD....

Post by race#67 » Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:17 am

Thanks, that link has some very helpful documents in it that I will use. One thing is for certain, the level of passion for the race is lower in my area than what I am seeing in other districts.
We did not even have a district race until last year, and it was open invitation racing. The effort shown in this website is phenomenal, and impressive.
I am trying to keep my rules to one page, as to be honest I am not sure anyone will even read it if I go longer than that. The sad bit true feeling I get from some of the parents is "How soon can my kid lose so we can leave?".



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Re: In charge of purchasing track and running 2016 PWD....

Post by Darin McGrew » Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:34 pm

Vitamin K wrote:One thing we're doing is to purchase Krytox and better axles and make them available to the boys (we might ask for a buck for the axles...not sure yet), just so that everybody's got access to the same stuff.
That has been our approach. Well, the "better axles" come standard when you buy CSB's Shape N Race kits. But I bought 3 bottles of Krytox several years ago, and we make it available for everyone at the later workshops, on check-in day, and at the repair station on derby night. A little goes a long way, so those 3 bottles will last us several more derbies.

And Krytox makes a lot less mess than graphite.

And we have drill presses and band saws at our workshops, so anyone can make their wheelbase whatever they want.



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Re: In charge of purchasing track and running 2016 PWD....

Post by Darin McGrew » Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:40 pm

race#67 wrote:I am trying to keep my rules to one page, as to be honest I am not sure anyone will even read it if I go longer than that.
I like short, concise rules myself. Another consideration is that the kids should be able to understand the rules, so simplicity is good too.



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Re: In charge of purchasing track and running 2016 PWD....

Post by Vitamin K » Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:41 pm

Darin McGrew wrote:
Vitamin K wrote:One thing we're doing is to purchase Krytox and better axles and make them available to the boys (we might ask for a buck for the axles...not sure yet), just so that everybody's got access to the same stuff.
That has been our approach. Well, the "better axles" come standard when you buy CSB's Shape N Race kits. But I bought 3 bottles of Krytox several years ago, and we make it available for everyone at the later workshops, on check-in day, and at the repair station on derby night. A little goes a long way, so those 3 bottles will last us several more derbies.

And Krytox makes a lot less mess than graphite.

And we have drill presses and band saws at our workshops, so anyone can make their wheelbase whatever they want.
Thanks Darin. Do you have any advice for getting folks lubed with Krytox? Most instructions say to apply it before you insert the axle. Do you have them do it before insertion, or are you able to effectively oil the axle if it's already mounted in the bore on the car?



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Re: In charge of purchasing track and running 2016 PWD....

Post by knotthed » Wed Nov 25, 2015 5:03 pm

Speedster wrote:Vitamin K, I think you're Correct.

On the Extended wheelbase, some guy named Sporty claims it's easier to tune an extended wheelbase car. I think all the winning cars in the Mid America race were probably extended wheelbase if allowed.
Speedster,

FWIW, our Mid America (not winners but top 12) cars were all 5" wheelbase.



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Re: In charge of purchasing track and running 2016 PWD....

Post by rcmoeur » Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:25 pm

If all our participating families were trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, and cheerful (and also hopefully thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent), the rules could be very simple or even verbal.

But one thing I've learned is that there are a few of Those Families (seldom at the Pack Level, but sometimes at the District level), and that one unsuccessfully-managed interaction can ruin the day for a lot of people. And the rules we've rewritten, adopted, and improved over the past few years, along with fair full inspections, have nearly eliminated the problems of the past. Yes, parents and boys occasionally show up with aftermarket/shaved wheels or 5.049 ounce cars, but we deal with them in a friendly and proactive manner, informing them of the issue, clearly laying out their options (reassignment to Open Class, replacement of out-of-spec items with in-spec parts, weight reduction options, etc.), and then actively assisting with the resolution. But the near-absence of ambiguity in the car specs, plus a requirement that all families read and follow the rules beforehand, means the discussion focuses on solutions and not loopholes or "creative reinterpretation".



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Re: In charge of purchasing track and running 2016 PWD....

Post by Speedster » Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:07 pm

knotthed, if your cars were in the top 12, you were definitely a WINNER!!!!!! CONGRATULATIONS !!!!!!!
Speedster (aka Bill. I don't know how you guys do it )



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Re: In charge of purchasing track and running 2016 PWD....

Post by Darin McGrew » Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:19 am

Vitamin K wrote:Thanks Darin. Do you have any advice for getting folks lubed with Krytox? Most instructions say to apply it before you insert the axle. Do you have them do it before insertion, or are you able to effectively oil the axle if it's already mounted in the bore on the car?
Most folks in our derbies apply lube as part of the final step of mounting the wheels and axles. Using Krytox doesn't change that. Before, most would apply graphite to the wheel bore, insert the axle, spin the wheel, and then insert the axle (with the wheel) into the pre-pressed hole. Now, most apply a couple drops of Krytox to the axle, insert into the wheel, spin, remove from the wheel, wipe off the excess, and insert the axle (with the wheel) into the pre-pressed hole.

There have been cases where someone needed to apply lube but the axles were already mounted. Applying a drop of Krytox so it drips into the bore of a mounted wheel isn't hard. It may not be optimal, but it's better than running without lube. And I think it's easier than trying to apply graphite to an already-mounted wheel.



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Re: In charge of purchasing track and running 2016 PWD....

Post by Speedster » Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:28 am

Applying graphite to a mounted wheel is fairly easy. A technique I learned from Sporty. I understand he nows "puffs" it in but I prefer his original way. It's more work for the scout. It teaches the scout Hand-Eye coordination and since it takes a little time it also teaches him patience.
Use a small artist brush. Apply a small amount of graphite into the bore between the car and the hub. Turn the wheel 1/3 and apply more graphite. Turn the wheel again 1/3 and more graphite. Bounce the wheel up and down 2 times to spread the graphite. Finger spin the wheel 10 times in the direction the wheel will roll in the race. Do this 3 times for each wheel. The scout has his car to hold instead of trying to hold an axle while spinning the wheel. He also will know which way to spin the wheel to make sure he is spinning it in the direction it will roll when racing. Lube the car body, inner and outer hub before mounting. The inner rim of the wheel can be lubed with a finger after it is mounted.

Our rules specify graphite only. If your rules allow oil, and you can afford it, by all means use the oil.
Yours in Going Downhill Fast,
Speedster



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Re: In charge of purchasing track and running 2016 PWD....

Post by race#67 » Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:15 pm

Just a quick update,
~Software has been purchased and installed. I Also imported our roster as a .csv from from excel and set up the dens as groups. Tested out a webcam to take pictures of the cars or the scouts for the image field. Leaning towards using the cars.

~Timer kit has arrived from Microwizard, and assembly to begin this week.

~Track to ship on 12/10.

Rules I plan to present this week are below.
Thanks for all the help so far, I will keep this thread updated as we go along.

The Pinewood Derby is always one of the highlights of the Cub Scout experience. It is an excellent opportunity to spend time working together with your child to learn about design, physics, craftsmanship, and a sense of fair play. The following rules are in place to help ensure a positive experience for all the boys These rules have been distributed with each car. If your car does not comply with the letter and intent of these rules as determined by the Cubmaster you have chosen to be disqualified.

CONSTRUCTION: Cars shall be prepared as a boy/parent project (ideally together). The boy should be allowed to do as much of the preparation work that he is able to do. When working with tools, parents must approve what the boy can safely handle. Each scout may enter one car. Each car must pass a technical inspection in accordance with the DESIGN RULES (page 2) before it may compete.

RACE CLASSES: Scout Class, Sibling Class, and Adult Class races will be run. Adult class rules will be relaxed to allow legacy cars to be used, but new adult builds are encouraged. Kits for sibling and adult race are available at the Scout Shop, and some may be available from Curt Ellis for $5 each.

TROPHIES: Overall Pack Speed Awards for 1st, 2nd and 3rd place, and fastest qualifier in each den.. Voting will also take place for the Most Realistic, Most Creative, and Spirit of Scouting. Only Scout class cars will be eligible for voting awards.

CUBMASTER'S CUP: A new for 2016 perpetual award that will have the name of the Den that has the lowest overall average qualifying time. This award will have the name of the den placed on it and be displayed every year at the races. The goal is to promote teamwork and sharing between the dens.

RACE PROCEDURE: Each car will run one heat race in each of the four lanes on the track with a digital timer. The four times will be added together. The lowest total times will determine the qualifying order. The top three qualifiers will advance to the final.

A "Leader of the Pack" final will be run with a field of 16 qualifying cars. The top three in each den will automatically advance to the final. The remaining spots will be filled by the non advancing cars with the lowest elapsed times. These cars will run each of the four lanes again, with the lowest total time of the final determining 1st, 2nd and 3rd place overall.

During any race, if a car leaves its lane and interferes with another car or suffers any mechanical problems, the racer will be given a chance to repair the car, no times will be recorded and the race will be re-run. If the same car causes interference or breaks down again, the race will be re-run but without the offending car.

Damages that would prevent a car from competing can be repaired during the Derby only if it does not delay the event, but no modifications shall be allowed. Cars not able to be repaired prior to next race will forfeit.

The Trackmaster and Pit Crew will stage and run all races and make any decisions necessary during the running of the races. The decision of the Trackmaster is final.

DESIGN RULES:
Wheel Base : Any as long as wheels do not exceed the 7″ total length requirement.
Total Car Height : Not to exceed 3″.
Total Car Length : Not to exceed 7″.
Total Car BODY Width : Not to exceed 2-3/4″.
Underside Clearance : Minimum 3/8" high and 1-3/4" wide to clear center guide rail.
Total Car Weight : Not to exceed 5.0 ounces as determined by Official Weigh In Scale.
BODY:
Wood from the Official BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit must be used to construct your car. All cars are to be "New Build" for 2016. No repeat or repaint cars. Additional construction accessories are encouraged for decorative purposes as long as the items comply with dimensional rules. No loose materials of any kind are permitted on the car. No springs or rubber shocks.

Officially Licensed BSA Axles & Wheels must be installed to the side of the car body directly across from one another in the same location as the stock kit axle slots. There must be at least four wheels on the car, however, it is not required that all four wheels make contact with the track surface.
WHEELS:
a. May be sanded to remove burrs and mold marks only.
b. The tread / contact surface must remain flat and parallel to the bore as humanly possible.
c. No Angling, Reshaping, Canting, Round Crowning, Tapering, H-ing, V-ing, Dishing, the outside of the wheels and/or tread surface.
d. All markings must remain visible on the inside and outside of the wheel including tread bumps.
e. NO Wheel covers may be used.
f. 8.00mm Minimum Tread Width.
g. Wheels must weigh at least 2.4 grams and a wheel can be removed after the race to be weighed to confirm weight.
h. Internet purchased modified 'speed wheels' are strictly prohibited.

AXLES:
a. Only stock officially licensed BSA nail type axles may be used. (Revell or kit issued)
b. Axles may be filed and polished to remove burrs.
c. NO washers, inserts, sleeves or bearings are allowed.
d. Internet purchased modified 'speed axles' are strictly prohibited.
WEIGHT:
Weight should be added to the car to get close to the 5.0 ounce maximum, but must be firmly attached by permanent glue, nails or screws.
LUBRICANT:
Dry lubricants are the only lubricants permitted. These include Graphite and Powdered Teflon. The use of liquid and spray lubricants such as WD-40, sewing machine oil and others is expressly prohibited.
NO LUBRICANT TO BE APPLIED INSIDE THE BUILDING!!!!
GRAVITY POWERED:
The race car may not be constructed or treated in such a way that the track's starting mechanism imparts momentum to the car. (For instance, this provision disqualifies cars with sticky substances on the front of the car and protrusions which may catch on the starting pin.)



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