Power Tools & WHO?

How to have useful construction workshops.
Post Reply
NE-II-143
Apprentice
Apprentice
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:30 am
Location: Stratford, CT
Contact:

Power Tools & WHO?

Post by NE-II-143 »

My son is well trained in the use of the only two power tools we ever use to build his car and these are the scroll saw & drill press.

This year some Parents & Leaders want a workshop that results in a finished car rather than the version we offered last year where individual skill sets were taught using hand tools on scrap lumber at rotating work stations.

So this year we are offering a start to finish 2 weekend workshop (as long as it takes) in a local cabinet makers shop. It looks now like the painting is all that will need to be done at home though this might change.

The dilemma: BSA forbids the Boys using power tools in a workshop with or without a Tour Permit. I also don't want to elevate our cabinet makers exposure to liability so even letting Dad use power tools might be a problem.

How do most folks deal with this issue? Does the Leader use the tool? The Parent?

TIA,

Steve
Mike Doyle
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 275
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:26 pm
Location: Kansas

Re: Power Tools & WHO?

Post by Mike Doyle »

You can still make the visit to the cabinet shop a learning experience, the boys can transfer their designs to the blocks and your host at the cabinet shop can cut them out while the boys supervise.

Shop Safety can be emphasized and demonstrated and the Scouts can still enjoy a learning experience without direct exposure to power tools.

Another alternative is to provide coping saws and wood rasp's so the Scouts can shape or refine the rough cut blocks themselves. There is still plenty of work to do on the car after the block is cut out- shaping, sanding, weight, paint, and axle prep and alignment.

Regarding axle prep, at last years workshop we had a station with a vise and small file set so the Scouts could de-burr their axles and lightly wet sand the imperfections. Final polishing was done on a drill press by an adult with Scout supervision.
User avatar
Darin McGrew
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 1825
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:23 pm
Location: Knoxville, TN
Contact:

Re: Power Tools & WHO?

Post by Darin McGrew »

NE-II-143 wrote:How do most folks deal with this issue? Does the Leader use the tool? The Parent?
At our workshops, the kids are not allowed to use the bandsaws, and are not allowed near the crucible we use for molten lead. But that's all the "adults only" work involved. The kids use the drill presses, hand drills, bench sanders, Dremel tools, scroll saws, and hand tools, and they spray the paint, apply the glue, lubricate the axles, etc.

We keep it fairly unstructured, letting the kids work on whatever stage they're ready for. There's a lot of cutting, shaping, and sanding the first weekend; a lot of weighting, priming, and painting the second weekend; and a lot of painting, wheel prep, and axle polishing the third weekend. But some kids start on their wheels/axles the first weekend, and some :-/ are cutting and sanding on the third weekend (just a few days before registration).

We don't have to "go anywhere" for the workshop. We bring all the tools to the church, and set up all the stations near the Sunday school rooms.
User avatar
gpraceman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4926
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Contact:

Re: Power Tools & WHO?

Post by gpraceman »

NE-II-143 wrote:The dilemma: BSA forbids the Boys using power tools in a workshop with or without a Tour Permit. I also don't want to elevate our cabinet makers exposure to liability so even letting Dad use power tools might be a problem.
Where did you hear that from? Personally, I think that some organizations are going off the deep end with liability concerns.

We tried a new Awana club last year, since we moved from San Diego, and they would not let the kids cut out their own cars because of the liability concern (workshops were at the church). An adult would cut it out and hand it to the kids. Part of what we should be teaching the kids with this project is how to use power tools safely.

I'd rather do workshops in my garage so I can make sure that the kids learn how to use the various power tools safely and are not just spectators.
Darin McGrew wrote:At our workshops, the kids are not allowed to use the bandsaws, and are not allowed near the crucible we use for molten lead. But that's all the "adults only" work involved. The kids use the drill presses, hand drills, bench sanders, Dremel tools, scroll saws, and hand tools, and they spray the paint, apply the glue, lubricate the axles, etc.
I fully agree with that. I do think that bandsaws are a bit too dangerous for the kids to be using as well as working with molten materials.
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8

Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
NE-II-143
Apprentice
Apprentice
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:30 am
Location: Stratford, CT
Contact:

Re: Power Tools & WHO?

Post by NE-II-143 »

NE-II-143 wrote:
The dilemma: BSA forbids the Boys using power tools in a workshop with or without a Tour Permit. I also don't want to elevate our cabinet makers exposure to liability so even letting Dad use power tools might be a problem.


Where did you hear that from? Personally, I think that some organizations are going off the deep end with liability concerns.
I called my District Executive for his opinion. I prefaced my question with "We're holding a PWD workshop & plan to use power tools to accomadate all Scouts on a time line. I will check the G2SS but what's your take on.....". He said it's against standing BSA policy to allow the boys access to moving steel blades.

Perhaps this is another Scouting myth? I'll research this matter. There is an awful lot of politically motivated misinformation that has crept into Scouting especially with respect to metal cutting objects.

We have a LOT of coping saws, rasps, files, etc left over from prior workshops. These we will put into use once the rough cuts have been handled.

Our Charter Org is an Elementary School. However it is the Recreation Dept that organizes school use time here in Town. Since the Janitors Union contract requires a janitor open the building for our use, we would have to pay $50 per hour to use our own Charter Org School.
The alternative is the Middle School just next door that has a pool that is always open as a line item of the Town's budget. (Free swimming is a higher priority than Scouting I guess)
So since it is already open & paid for we get to use that facility for free. At their request we don't use power tools in the cafeteria where we hold Pack Meetings.
The rest of that Middle School (including shop) is closed at night & would require another janitor.
No one has ever "approved" our free use of any school. But the nice folks at Recreation asked that we not draw attention to the matter & I respectfully bite my lip.

The politics of incident avoidance at it's very best.

My own heated shop is too small for all of the boys (and many of my own power tools) & my oversized garage is unheated. Perhaps it's time I break down & get a Modine for the garage.
User avatar
Da Graphite Kid
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 327
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2003 6:29 pm
Location: Eufaula, AL.

Re: Power Tools & WHO?

Post by Da Graphite Kid »

Steve,

I too would like to hear where this "BSA forbids the Boys using power tools in a workshop with or without a Tour Permit" comes from as I just did a quick look through the Guide to Safe Scouting (version "E") and did not see anything stating this. It is true that you will need to submit and have approved (by your Council) a Tour Permit for any activity outside of your normal meeting place. This should be all you need to be covered by the insurance that all of your Cub Scouts and registered Leaders have through National BSA. However I don't believe that this covers the unregistered adults or siblings that may be there (jump in on this at anytime Stan).

I don't see any problems with the boys using power tools as long as it is the hands-on-hands method. If the boys have at least three years of experience in using the tools or show an exceptional talent (and safety) in using the tools, I will allow them to use the tools with a modified version of the hands-on-hands method with the difference being that the adults hands are now on a power switch. There is no way I would allow a Cub Scout to use a bandsaw as some adults have shown that they aren't even safe using one!

You could possibly get by any liability issues for the shop owner by having everyone sign a statement stating that the shop owner would not be liable, but I would consult your Unit Commissioner first and if not him the District Commissioner and than District Executive before contacting your Council directly.

Now personally I disagree with having someone cut out the cars and handing them to the boys unless they are Tiger Cubs and even than it should be their Tiger Cub Partners who do it (educate the adult as well as the Cub Scout). After that it should be hands-on-hands with the Parent or shop host guiding and protecting the boys (if you place your hands on top of the Cub Scouts, not only are you controlling the cutting/shaping of the pwd car body but you are also keeping the boys from jerking their hands away and possibly hurting themselves. :wink: ). I always have some scrap pwd blocks or scrap pinewood of the approximate shape and size as a pwd block for the Parent and/or Scout to practice on first. Always - always stress safety! I have told both Cub Scouts and Parents that they will have to leave if they have been told to stop doing some unsafe act and continue doing it. Last year I had to ask one parent to leave as their actions distroyed one of my Pro-Tools [Mental note: I hope Santa brings me a new one this year as I mostly have been a good Pinehead! :lol: ]. We have only had one incident where someone got hurt so far and I aim to keep it the last [it was my oldest son who forgot that you don't let go of the pwd block until after the dremel tool has stopped spinning. He had lost respect for the tool and it bit him! We were lucky that it was only a minor cut but we use this story to drive home the need for safety in the shop.].

Like Gpraceman all of our workshops have been conducted in my shop where I can control the safety factors and where I know the equipment that is being used and can shut everything down at a moments notice if there is a safety concern. Since it is a small shop, our workshops are more individual so I can always observe what the different teams are doing.

Remeber: shop safety isn't just about how the tools are used - it's also about a persons attitude. You lose respect for the tools (powered or otherwise) and you lose a finger. Think Safe - Be Safe!


Da Graphite Kid
User avatar
Da Graphite Kid
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 327
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2003 6:29 pm
Location: Eufaula, AL.

Re: Power Tools & WHO?

Post by Da Graphite Kid »

Steve,

I guess you posted while I was re-reading my post.

I would ask your DE where this BSA Policy came from period. If it is not a BSA Policy (a "Policy" and not a "Guideline") or if it is not a local Council Policy than there is nothing forbidding the use of metal cutting blades [just what the heck is a knife anyways?]. If this is not a policy, than I would contact your DE's boss at Council (in iur Council this would be the Scout Executive but than we have several vacant positions at the Council level).

The way we get around any BSA policy is that we don't have workshops for Cub Scouts to build pwd cars. We have more informal workshops where "individuals who want to build a pwd car and who may or may not be members of the BSA, can come and get help in building a Pinewood Derby Car". :wink: In this way it is not a BSA event, however that also means that you-know-who's insurance will take the brunt of any lawsuit that some parent submits! :shock:


Da Graphite Kid
NE-II-143
Apprentice
Apprentice
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:30 am
Location: Stratford, CT
Contact:

Re: Power Tools & WHO?

Post by NE-II-143 »

DaGK,

I know that my DE consulted our Scout Executive. Where they found this "policy" is a mystery as of now. Perhaps it is just an opinion at this point. I haven't challnged the issue yet. That I think should not be by phone or email but I live near our Council office & will visit in person with G2SS in hand.

I agree that hands on hands poses little if any risk so long as order is the rule of the shop. ALL of the tools I would elect to use are my own & all have lock-outs. My general policy has been (in my own shop) that only one tool is unlocked at any given time. But these have always been limitted to fewer than 3 Scouts at once.

When we have held hand-tool workshops I have yet to see a Boy finish a detailed car with a coping saw in the time we have alotted (not enough). I went so far last year as to purchase a high-end saw with Japanese ultra sharp/agressive blade for longer cuts. This was used in a jig that I built so that a wedge could be cut with ease. Despite being clamped & bolted to the work-station at an ideal 7-10 year-old height only 2 Boys finished the cut in the alotted 90 minutes we had that night both with help from their Dads.

Weekend workshops will solve some of the time constraint problems. But the fatigue & boredom associated with using the "Official BSA PWD Saw" (kit from Council) will make for a tedious session for all but the most pyhsically advanced Scout. Even Webelos had trouble the last 2 years we tried cutting bodies by hand. This is why last years workshop was "theoretical & awareness training" only. A fatigued Scout is part of the recipe for a shop related accident.
User avatar
ranman106
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 354
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2003 9:31 am
Location: somewhere, north carolina

Re: Power Tools & WHO?

Post by ranman106 »

NE-II-143 wrote:DaGK,

I know that my DE consulted our Scout Executive. Where they found this "policy" is a mystery as of now. Perhaps it is just an opinion at this point. I haven't challnged the issue yet. That I think should not be by phone or email but I live near our Council office & will visit in person with G2SS in hand.
I would ask for a copy of the "policy" with page number and book reference just in case any parents question why this is not allowed. :wink: You know, so you can give each parent a copy at your next pack meeting. Just my .02.
The Wedge - It's not a doorstop, it's a way of life!
Jthompson

Re: Power Tools & WHO?

Post by Jthompson »

My Pack is new to Pinewood derby this year. We will be conducting workshops at parents homes. From a liability perspective, I would like to know if anyone has knowledge of the forms that have to be filled out with BSA to limit personal liability.
User avatar
Da Graphite Kid
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 327
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2003 6:29 pm
Location: Eufaula, AL.

Re: Power Tools & WHO?

Post by Da Graphite Kid »

John,

Someone at the Council level will have to approve any activity outside of your normal meeting place. This is done by filing out a Local Tour Permit (#34426E) even though you may only be travelling a few miles. I suggest that you have your contact your Pack Committee and have them go up the chain of contacts (Unit Commissioner, District Commissioner) to the District Executive and ask about this.

Da Graphite Kid
GILLS
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:33 pm
Location: Nashville, Tn.

Re: Power Tools & WHO?

Post by GILLS »

Steve,
I too have never heard of that particular policy, even a coping saw's blade is made of steel. I usually bring my 9" tabletop bandsaw and my drillpress in during our workshop times. On the band saw I usually don't allow anyone but myself to use it with the scouts. I usually do thid hands on hands and if we have a tight cut to make where your hands get close to the blade, I usually stop the saw and ask the scout to step back and allow me to finish the particular cut.
I also keep hands on hands on the drillpress as well. So far we have been fortunate not to have any accidents. Safety class is always taught first, as wel as providing them with clear safety glasses. We always stress respect for the tools we use, but not to be afraid of them.
NE-II-143
Apprentice
Apprentice
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:30 am
Location: Stratford, CT
Contact:

Re: Power Tools & WHO?

Post by NE-II-143 »

I finally sat down with my DE in a quiet place. He admits the only references to Power Tools are in the Boy Scout books. The latest G2SS contains no reference to Power Tools at all.

He back pedalled to where if it's OK with the Property owner then a Leader or the business owner may operate the power tool as long as the boys aren't doing it alone.

Since this is what we had in mind all along, the workshops are on if there is sufficient interest among parents/boys.
Pack 177 Stratford, CT

...and a good old Eagle too.
Post Reply