Science Project

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pwdarchitect
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Re: Science Project

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hey guys those are all great suggestions but what TAL needs is to find the question first. Something like.......What effect will "A" (input what you want to test) have on "B" (the constant object)? Once that question is derived then the experiment can be concluded with the how's and why's.

Jim
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Re: Science Project

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pwdarchitect wrote:hey guys those are all great suggestions but what TAL needs is to find the question first. Something like.......What effect will "A" (input what you want to test) have on "B" (the constant object)? Once that question is derived then the experiment can be concluded with the how's and why's.

Jim
Having considered Jim's question a little, I think I would phrase the question this way:

What effect does Potential Energy have on the distance a Pinewood car will travel?
OR
What effect does Potential Energy have on the speed with which a Pinewood car will travel?

The choice of question above would be determined by how the experiments were set up (i.e. observing distance or observing speed, I would stick with one or the other).

I would then shape the experiments beginning with low PE (no added weight, low release height) and go through a series of PE increases to observe the effect.

Trial #
0) no added weight, low release height
1) Increase PE by moving car halfway up the ramp
2) Increase PE further by moving car up behind the starting pins
3) Increase PE further by keeping same location and adding weight to front of car
4) Increase PE further by keeping same location but moving all added weight to back of car

Something to that effect, so that only one variable is being changed (PE) and only one result parameter is being monitored (speed or distance).

Save the study of multiple variables (PE, aerodynamics, friction) and their relative importance for 4th grade :D
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Re: Science Project

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Go Bubba Go! :clap:

Now put it in "kid terms" as my wife says that a 3rd grader will understand. :wink: :D

Jim
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Re: Science Project

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Go Bubba Go wrote: Trial #
0) no added weight, low release height
1) Increase PE by moving car halfway up the ramp
2) Increase PE further by moving car up behind the starting pins
3) Increase PE further by keeping same location and adding weight to front of car
4) Increase PE further by keeping same location but moving all added weight to back of car

Something to that effect, so that only one variable is being changed (PE) and only one result parameter is being monitored (speed or distance).
Two comments:

1. Changing the PE by changing the starting location of the car will have unwanted effects, changing what should be constants into variables (e.g. distance traversed, path traversed, starting slope, whatever) In other words, you will have multiple independent variables. My science teacher wife tells me that some science fair judges will not approve of this.

2. Changing the PE by changing the weight is one thing. Changing the PE by moving the weight is another thing. As most of us know, these do not have the same effect on some non-standard tracks, illustrating that they are, in fact, different independent variables.

I think each of these two last two ways of changing PE constitutes its own separate experiment -- you only want to turn one dial at a time.
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Re: Science Project

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Cory wrote:Two comments:

1. Changing the PE by changing the starting location of the car will have unwanted effects, changing what should be constants into variables (e.g. distance traversed, path traversed, starting slope, whatever) In other words, you will have multiple independent variables. My science teacher wife tells me that some science fair judges will not approve of this.
Good point on the judges, while the presentation is "designed" to teach 3rd graders it is going to be assessed by the judges. I struggled a little with the recommendation on moving the location, but figured (at least in the "how far will it travel down the flat" experiments) that the kids would not pick up on the added variables and just "get" the bigger point about increased PE and results. Maybe not so for the judges. If the speed result (based on elapsed time) is what is being observed, the added distance on the front end would definitely require exclusion of the trials with differing lengths traveled.
Cory wrote:Two comments:

2. Changing the PE by changing the weight is one thing. Changing the PE by moving the weight is another thing. As most of us know, these do not have the same effect on some non-standard tracks, illustrating that they are, in fact, different independent variables.
My assumption was a standard steady slope down, then long path track. I would expect the test to show that generally "added PE produces added distance or speed", rather than a more general principle about weight distribution in pinewood cars.

Upon further reflection (and good feedback above), perhaps at this grade level the best experiment is just the:

Trial 0 "empty" car
Trial 1 add 2 oz. weight
Trial 2 add 2 oz. more weight
Trial 3 add 2 oz. more weight

I was thinking about something that would express more "creative" ways to increase PE and thereby affect results, but the simple test above might be best for both the 3rd graders and the judges. Might have "outthought myself" with the more elaborate trials I proposed earlier.
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Re: Science Project

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Go Bubba Go wrote: Upon further reflection (and good feedback above), perhaps at this grade level the best experiment is just the:

Trial 0 "empty" car
Trial 1 add 2 oz. weight
Trial 2 add 2 oz. more weight
Trial 3 add 2 oz. more weight

I was thinking about something that would express more "creative" ways to increase PE and thereby affect results, but the simple test above might be best for both the 3rd graders and the judges. Might have "outthought myself" with the more elaborate trials I proposed earlier.
My wife, the scientist/teacher, had a similar reaction, GBG. She very much liked the idea of moving the car around, because of the dramatic consequences it can have -- e.g. a car that starts half-way down the hill with a 6 foot head start will lose the race on a typical track! This is the sort of thing that can impress a young student!

One problem we have here is that we don't know exactly how TAL's science fair will be judged. It could be that what you described earlier is exactly the sort of thing they'd like to see from a 3rd grader. I know from experience it's not what they're expecting from my 7th grader, however.

Of the various ways of changing PE, I like the experiment you just described the best. It is simple to understand and easy to implement for a 3rd grader. It will yield good data, i.e., good separation of times for the various trials.

I also like the fact that the results of your latest experiment will disagree with those stubborn parents I always had who simply would not admit that heavier cars are faster. 8) A decent judge at my 7th grader's science fair might pick on this. During the much-dreaded interview part of the science fair, he/she might ask my daughter to explain why different weighted iron balls dropped from a building go at the same speed, but different weighted PWD cars don't.
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Re: Science Project

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Cory wrote:...I also like the fact that the results of your latest experiment will disagree with those stubborn parents I always had who simply would not admit that heavier cars are faster. 8)
Got a big smile from your comment regarding stubborn.... Gotta like the "hard sciences". I used to overhear Liberal Arts majors arguing "philosophy" in circles, making no apparent progress, and yet continuing on their "merry way" with no resolution in sight. I never understood how they kept their sanity. :shock: The Engineers always eventually "took it to the lab", where the correct position would be vindicated, followed by another argument about the implications of the correct position, and another experiment... The questions still kept going, but they were new questions based on new knowledge with old questions being resolved :D
Cory wrote:...A decent judge at my 7th grader's science fair might pick on this. During the much-dreaded interview part of the science fair, he/she might ask my daughter to explain why different weighted iron balls dropped from a building go at the same speed, but different weighted PWD cars don't.
This probably takes us to the next section of this thread (hopefully helpful to TAL and not just taking on a life of it's own for no reason):

What questions should a 3rd grade presenter anticipate, and how should the 3rd grader prepare to answer them well? (I'm not much help here, limited "Science Fair" experience leaves me not knowing what to expect at the 3rd grade level).
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Re: Science Project

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Go Bubba Go wrote:What questions should a 3rd grade presenter anticipate, and how should the 3rd grader prepare to answer them well? (I'm not much help here, limited "Science Fair" experience leaves me not knowing what to expect at the 3rd grade level).
I think is where TAL needs to consult local authorities on the subject.

Our 6th graders do projects -- usually product comparisons -- but there is no "dreaded interview". Our 7th & 8th graders get dressed up in nice clothes and get grilled,...I mean questioned by as many as three judges. The projects follow a strict format:

Problem statement -- What is the effect of weight on a PWD car's speed?
Hypothesis -- It won't make any difference, based on my prior knowledge of Galileo and the Tower of Pisa
Experimental design -- blah, blah,...
Data collection -- etc, etc...
....
Conclusion -- Yikes, weight does make a difference.

So this is what I'm familiar with. But I have a hard time seeing that they would expect this much of 3rd graders like the ones that once inhabited my house.
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Re: Science Project

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Cory wrote: I think is where TAL needs to consult local authorities on the subject.
Lots of interesting input here in this thread...

I am trying to get my daughter to find out more from the teacher and also will be doing research (hopefully together ,she and I ) on 3rd grade expectations...

I have read many great ideas of getting the point across and like the idea of maybe a greater weight difference for greater impact of the difference, and also interesting idea of different starting heights with same weights...

We will probably try a little expriment off the record to see which demonstrates the greatest difference with the least modification either to the track (starting heigth) or shifting the weight on the car...

I am totally new to the Science Fair thing and really have no idea what is expected and we really appreciate all the input ...
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Re: Science Project

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TAL wrote:
Cory wrote: I think is where TAL needs to consult local authorities on the subject.
...I am trying to get my daughter to find out more from the teacher and also will be doing research (hopefully together, she and I ) on 3rd grade expectations...

I have read many great ideas of getting the point across and like the idea of maybe a greater weight difference for greater impact of the difference, and also interesting idea of different starting heights with same weights...

We will probably try a little experiment off the record to see which demonstrates the greatest difference with the least modification either to the track (starting height) or shifting the weight on the car...

I am totally new to the Science Fair thing and really have no idea what is expected and we really appreciate all the input ...
It just occured to me (duh) that with respect to this issue your best bet might be to just directly approach the Science teacher or "head judge" with your questions above and ask for their input.

You have to be able in all sincerity to say that you appreciate the Science fair and want to make sure she (and her classmates) get the full benefit from the event that the faculty intend. You are, on the one hand, trying to determine what might constitute a "foul" (i.e. the multiple variable issue Cory raised above) and, at the same time, trying to better understand what they hope to accomplish in order to do so with your contribution.

Their reaction will likely be that of most Pineheads i.e. an honest pursuit of learning is rewarded (while a "gimme gimme" demand for "the secret to 1st place" is not). Public School teachers tend to be a bit touchy about the whole "teaching to the test" issue, but as long as you are really trying to address their intent (i.e. good lurnin' for all) you should be OK.
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Re: Science Project

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Yea ... By doing research today and last night it's looking like space is limited on most local ,regional and state levels...

Something like 72 inches high, 24 inches deep and only 4 foot wide...

I really don't know about her local rules ,we'll have to find out for sure more about the allowed specs and what is expected to be done for the best for all the little ones involved......

We did find out that potential energy is only potential until it moves , then it becomes another type of energy...

We also seen where some one did a simular project with toy cars and cartons at the end and how far the cartons were moved determined another type of energy...

It's also looking like this type of thing is not studied until about the 5th grade, mainly introduced with rollercoasters for example, with the up and down and over the hill type of thing.....

Oh yea, we also discovered today that you can heat up water with a peanut... :lol:
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Re: Science Project

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Thanks Bubba… I made those comments based on what worked with my son… he’s about 10… 4th grade…

I wish I had a test track to play with, could really show him some neat stuff with it.

I may get the cheap plastic track from the Scout store and mount a pair of lanes on a 2X10.

My wife already thinks I’m “Down and Derby”’d… if I build even a cheap track she is going to call the local psych ward!

:)

-Terry
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Re: Science Project

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The results for my daughter's science fair project are in. She managed to get First place again at the elementray school level which would aloow her to move on to the Regional Science Fair which was held this week. We found out that again for the second year in a row she not only managed to get First place in her Division, Applied Consumer Science, but also was the Overall 3rd Grade winner. My family takes the science fair seriously because it fun to discover the why's and how things work. The year's project was on Cookie dunking.......Which cookie soaked up the most milk?
The celebration for the evening included.........what else.... a big decorated chocolate chip cookie my wife made.

There were a couple of PWD projects there. If I thought ahead of time and had some DerbyTalk cards made up, I would have left them so that they could further continue in there studies. :lol:
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Re: Science Project

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pwdarchitect wrote:...The year's project was on Cookie dunking.......Which cookie soaked up the most milk?
And...

so which cookie won? and what did you do with the leftovers? :D

Was it a comparison of types of cookies (Oatmeal vs. Chocolate Chip vs. Fig Newtons) or of brands (Chips Ahoy vs. Matt's vs. homemade)?

Did she compare cookies based on relative absorption or just sheer ounces soaked up?

Out of the box vs. fresh out of the oven?

You know us science types...

p.s. I'm hungry. Hello, vending machine...
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Re: Science Project

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The cookie were store bought cookies but different types. She used Matt's Chocolate Chip, Newman-O's Chocolate Creme, PB Creme, Ginger Creme, County Choice Vanilla Wafers. The testing concluded that the PB Creme soaked up the least per volume @ 24% and the Vanilla Wafers the most at 100%. So if you like soggy cookies get some Vanilla Wafers and dunk'em.
Testing was done by weighing the cookies before and then re-weighed after a 20 second dunking.

Leftover? What leftovers? We had to have something to do while typing the reports.

J
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