Building a PC

[gpraceman]

Anyone build PC's? With my main system at least 5yrs old, it is time to look at getting a new computer. Though, I dread having to install all my programs and load my data onto a new system.

I have previously bought pre-built systems, but this time I am thinking about building a system. I was looking at this "barebones kit" as a starting point:

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications ... u=B69-1057

Then add in a DVD/CD drive, video card, CPU fan, case fans, and the OS. It is probably way more horsepower than I will ever need, but who knows what programs are going to be like in a few years, in terms of memory and video requirements. I do tend to run a lot of programs all at once and in developing software, I need a system that can run Visual Studio without the nagging delays that I currently experience.

The question that I have is on the OS. I want to steer clear of Vista and use Windows XP Pro. The only 64bit version that I can find for sale is "for system builders". It is not clear to me if that will work for my personal use. I'm building my own system, but I am not clear if that really qualifies.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6832116378

[dna1990]

I know you are hanging back from Vista, but I read an article just today about VideoGuys.com recommending Vista64 for NLE Editing...that is saying something I think. NLE software is notrious for being system-sensitive. Look in the Guides area.

I have good luck with parts from Directron.com (they are here in Houston). Also good experiences from newegg and zipzoomfly.

64bit is gonna you give the extra memory you need for working with multi apps at once. Which in turns relates to speed, but you will want to look at some of the latest multi core CPUs for raw speed. That video article above talks to the CPU side as well.

TomsHardware used to be useful, but lately it can be overwhelming with so much info, and some commercial influences. But check it out for cost/performance comparisons.

[Stan Pope]

Vista is not a problem for me. I'm running 2 XP boxes and 7 Vista boxes. The Vista boxes are more stable, although I fault ACER for not delivering a MB with the proper BIOS for Q6600. I end up with an XP crash every few weeks on the ACER Q6600 box. Will get around to updating the BIOS when I work up the nerve!

Q6700 is a far enough behind the bleeding edge that you should have few technology issues. I'm building Q9550's at the moment (one finished and producing, one still in the boxes until I finish another committment), but will switch to i7 (probably the 920 version ... will depend on costs of the faster models) when the "new" wears off of 'em and Intel is a bit less proud of 'em! Last time I looked, I could not find useful comparisons between i7 920 and Q9550, and especially how effective the new HyperThreading is. (I'm not much impressed with HT on the Pentium 4 line, but Intel claims that HT on the i7 is better.)

The Q6600, Q9550, and i7 920 seemed to me to be at about the knee of the price/performance curve, which is why I've stayed with them.

Performance comparisons between Q6600 and Q9550 ... for me the Q9550 puts out at least 25% more work, and I run 'em all 7X24 at 100% cpu load. The Q6700 should be somewhere in between.

I was a bit uneasy with the combination of components listed in that BB offering. Probably okay, but look 'em over carefully.

[Randy and Son]

Randy,

I think you lobbed Stan a softball and he hit it out.

Randy
(is there an echo in here?)

[gpraceman]

Vista is not a problem for me. I'm running 2 XP boxes and 7 Vista boxes. The Vista boxes are more stable, although I fault ACER for not delivering a MB with the proper BIOS for Q6600. I end up with an XP crash every few weeks on the ACER Q6600 box. Will get around to updating the BIOS when I work up the nerve!

Any of those running 64 bit Windows (XP or Vista)? I have been reading that XP still out performs Vista, even in 64 bit version.

I was a bit uneasy with the combination of components listed in that BB offering. Probably okay, but look 'em over carefully.

How so? I'm definitely open to some suggestions. I was also considering totally piecing a system together, instead of starting from a kit.

This is going to be my bread and butter machine (literally), so it needs to be reliable. I definitely don't want bleading edge for it. Maybe when I replace my laptop a bit later on, I'll make that a more bleeding edge machine.

[Stan Pope]

Vista is not a problem for me. I'm running 2 XP boxes and 7 Vista boxes. The Vista boxes are more stable, although I fault ACER for not delivering a MB with the proper BIOS for Q6600. I end up with an XP crash every few weeks on the ACER Q6600 box. Will get around to updating the BIOS when I work up the nerve!

Any of those running 64 bit Windows (XP or Vista)? I have been reading that XP still out performs Vista, even in 64 bit version.

Three Q6600's and the Q9550 are running 64 bit Vista Premium. The ACER Q6600 is running XP Pro, with the annotation of "Physical Address Extension" (to bridge the 4GB RAM problem?) Now that you mention it, I wonder if it isn't the 32-bit XP. Hmmm. I had attributed its somewhat lesser performance to the other stuff that I run on the machine ... like Eudora and Derby Talk and BOINCView!

I was a bit uneasy with the combination of components listed in that BB offering. Probably okay, but look 'em over carefully.

How so? I'm definitely open to some suggestions. I was also considering totally piecing a system together, instead of starting from a kit.

Some unfamiliar components and some, like the DDR3 memory, that looked out of place or not well matched... kinda like somebody looked at their parts remaining at the end of production runs and asked, "Hmmm... what can we make out of what is left over?"

A good strategy is to look at what you would select if you purchased the MB, RAM, CPU, etc separately and then compare specs piece by piece. If parts in the BB kit deviate too far from what you would have selected, then you probably won't be happy with it.

This is going to be my bread and butter machine (literally), so it needs to be reliable. I definitely don't want bleading edge for it. Maybe when I replace my laptop a bit later on, I'll make that a more bleeding edge machine.

The Q6700 is far enough from bleeding edge that you should have no problems in that regard. I try to buy about a year behind the bleeding edge. Expectation is that the surprises will have been ironed out, but it won't face incompatibilites for quite a while, and it won't fall too far behind in performance. Having enough CPU cycles to carry the M$oft OS overheads and still leave a lot for apps is an ongoing battle!

[gpraceman]

Thanks for your feedback Stan. My brain hurts from trying to compare different components and their specs.

I'm looking at mother boards right now. I've narrowed things down to two Asus boards that seem to suit what I need.

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications ... No=4244469
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications ... No=3940038

Both of these will run the Intel Core 2 Quads that I am looking at.

The main difference that I see is that one supports DDR3 RAM and the other only DDR2. So, which would be better for the long run? DDR3? Both mother boards cost the same, so memory might be the deciding issue.

[dna1990]

If you go DDR3, match 3 sticks at a time, don't fill all four slots...or so I surmise from casual reading.

[sporty]

Well I have xp pro on three computers and vista 64 bit on another.

vista 64 bit has been a headache for me at times.

first most of the my stuff, no longer works, no driver update for vista 64 bit.

My vinyl cutting machine, no work on 64 bit, they are still working on a driver. but I'm likely to have to buy a new one, before they will get if figured out. been waiting 9 months.

Some of my digi camera and mp4 players do not work either, due to driver issues.

I still prefer xp pro, service pack 2, I have gone to service pack 3 on two of them and think its better to stay with sp2.

I use to build my own, but found out, by the time I built what I wanted. I could have bought a new computer without all the time. but then again the last one i built, is still faster than most computer out there under $600.

I built mine for about $2000.


I have had amd and intel and prefer intel. i have played a little with overclocking and found it not worth the risk, versus the gain.

I built a water cooled unit before you could buy one. tried that on the amd. but got nervous if there would be condensation. But they seem to do well.


The barebones is really a better way to go, but pick your motherboard, and the cpu. get oem grade !

the warranty is better and bettery quality.

The chips in most store bought computers have a wider range of quality exceptence versus the oem.


I like gigabyte motherboards myself.


Keep and eye on barebone deals, ask about the bios and chip set. They have been known to dump the older motherboards and just jack up the settings on the mobo, into thinking you are getting more than what it can really handle. Creating instability issues.


I like to run extra fans also, dells are a pain to deal with for extra fans, they do not easily share or have the plugins on the mobo. so you have to use a converter or extra power supply cord pin to use a extra fan.


Thats why dells fail mostly after a few years, alteast the ones from 2001 to 2003 did. due to one fan and running hotter than it should.

Im not that into high end sound, so onboard sound has been okay for me, but i prefer a good video card ! not on board. but they have gotten better (the built in ones).

My other thoughts go as high end as you can with the mobo, processor, ram, that way 4 to 5 years down the road, you are still running and you are also still fairly fast.


Read some of the pc mags out there, on the top rated goodies and i would go with a selection from the top 5.


Sporty

[Stan Pope]

I'm puzzled over the DDR3 memory spec in P5Q3 MB ... the summary says DDR2, but the detail specs say DDR3 AND dual channel. I don't know exactly how to marry up those conflicts. The MB's for the i7's all seem to want 3 channels and DDR3 memory, best supplied in symmetric triples. Dual channel should want symmetric pairs of memory. More research needed on specific implications of DDR3 mem!


Research: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR3_SDRAM clarifies a bit! The "2" and the "3" don't seem to have anything to do with the number of channels between the CPU and the memories. Rather it deals with interface circuitry on the memory strip. So, if the MB is spec'ed for DDR3 and is dual channel, you get best performance by putting symmetric DDR3 RAM strips in each channel, i.e. install in pairs!

More research: I went to the ASUS pages rather than TigerDirect's pages and found that P5Q-E wants DDR2. P5Q3 wants DDR3. For a dual channel MB, with the CPU range you are looking at, DDR3 should not buy you anything. Either DDR2 or DDR3 can max out the data transfer capacities!

It probably doesn't bother you, but the back panel for the P5QE has a single PS2 connector. It will connect either to a mouse or to a keyboard or, if you add a splitter, you can plug both mouse and kbd in. Since I run with KVM switches, each set for a PS2 connector for mouse and another for keyboard, having to buy an adapter to send both into a single PS2 is irksome!

More research: the pics shown on the ASUS pages for both motherboards use the single Ps/2 connection! Argh!!! My ASUS P5Q and P5Q Pro MS's use two of 'em!

[Stan Pope]

Sporty has a good point about drivers ... they are often OS dependent when dealing with devices that have unique (proprietary) specification. Version up the OS tends to imply necessity to version up the driver. And the driver is the responsibility of the supplier of the peripheral! So, special gear like Sporty's vinyl cutter is likely to require a new driver to go from Xp to Vista to Vista 64. I have encountered a few instances in which the supplier has no interest in accomodating a 3rd or 4th OS version-up!

[gpraceman]

first most of the my stuff, no longer works, no driver update for vista 64 bit.

I've done a check on possible driver issues for x64 XP and Vista and the only device that will not work is my video capture device. That is not a surprise to me. I use this device for my RaceRepaly software testing. It works on my Vista Ultimate x32 laptop, which is my backup development machine, so I've got an out there. My other devices have x64 bit drivers available (XP and Vista).

I still prefer xp pro, service pack 2, I have gone to service pack 3 on two of them and think its better to stay with sp2.

SP3 has helped my desktop. It got rid of a BSD of death issue that I was experiencing upon shutdown. That and it has important security updates.

The barebones is really a better way to go, but pick your motherboard, and the cpu. get oem grade !

the warranty is better and bettery quality.

Well, it looks like I will just end up building this piece by piece. I think I will end up with a better system and maybe save a few dollars.

My other thoughts go as high end as you can with the mobo, processor, ram, that way 4 to 5 years down the road, you are still running and you are also still fairly fast.

That is what I am looking to do. This system will likely have way more horsepower than I will ever need (at least I hope) but be less expensive than just buying a comparable system off the shelf.

[gpraceman]

I'm puzzled over the DDR3 memory spec in P5Q3 MB ... the summary says DDR2, but the detail specs say DDR3 AND dual channel. I don't know exactly how to marry up those conflicts. The MB's for the i7's all seem to want 3 channels and DDR3 memory, best supplied in symmetric triples. Dual channel should want symmetric pairs of memory. More research needed on specific implications of DDR3 mem!

Yeah, I did notice that. A check of the Asus website confirms that it is DDR3.

Research: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDR3_SDRAM clarifies a bit! The "2" and the "3" don't seem to have anything to do with the number of channels between the CPU and the memories. Rather it deals with interface circuitry on the memory strip. So, if the MB is spec'ed for DDR3 and is dual channel, you get best performance by putting symmetric DDR3 RAM strips in each channel, i.e. install in pairs!

Yep, I read that article a little while ago. Reading the mother board install manual, it seems that you do need to install in pairs, if you wish to take advantage of dual channel. Otherwise, it will be treated as a single channel.

It probably doesn't bother you, but the back panel for the P5QE has a single PS2 connector. It will connect either to a mouse or to a keyboard or, if you add a splitter, you can plug both mouse and kbd in. Since I run with KVM switches, each set for a PS2 connector for mouse and another for keyboard, having to buy an adapter to send both into a single PS2 is irksome!

Won't be a problem for me. Only my keyboard uses a PS2 connector. The mouse is USB.

[sporty]

I forgot all about my ads 2.0 instant dvd video converter, it does not work on vista 64. I'm glad you recalled that issue with your video capture.

reminds me, i still need to install all of that stuff on one of my laptops.

I went and picked up two older laptops, one for around $30 and the other around $100. I had to add a few things. but i ended up with two compaq evo laptops. for all said and done under $200.

One is the n600c, 1.06 with only 266 fsb, 512 ram, 20 gig with xp, the other is a n620 evo, 2.01 with 366 fsb, 1 gig ram and 20 gig hg. both 14 inch screens.

A little slow but comes in handy here for the kids and for work. i got one that I built, older now, gigabyte mobo, 1.6 p4 intel, 1 gig, 400 fsb, 150 hg, radeon 7500 ddr video card.

Then I got the dell inspirion 530, 2.4 ghz duo core, 800 fsb, 2 gig ram. 250 sata hd. Also one of those e-machines from walmart. then also a dell laptop 600. run wireless router.

i had one i built that had a asus mobo in it, it was decent but had amd and i just didnt like amd. it was so inconsistant with processor speed. tried different cpu and ram. always seemed to run hotter than what I liked also.

Cant say but good things about the free parental program out there, works good ! kids these days seems to venture where they should not go yet.

I have a color laserjet hp 2600n for my printer.

i had gotten one of those dells 926 all in one, but the inks are costly, and even refilled the darn things have a chip in them, that can not be changed, so you had to always check the overide which seems to pop up abotu everytime i wanted to print or scan something, it was on the unit. the overide on the computer software was the easy one to do.

Sporty

[gpraceman]

I forgot all about my ads 2.0 instant dvd video converter, it does not work on vista 64. I'm glad you recalled that issue with your video capture.

Yep. Mine is the ADS Tech VideoXpress unit. Nothing from ADS Tech seems to have x64 drivers. Many of my software customers have not even been able to get the x32 drivers to work on Vista, with the latest model of the VideoXpress.


Well, I'm looking a bit more at CPU's. There's the Q6700 for ~$200 and the Q9300 for ~$281. The Q6700 has a higher processor speed, and L2 cache, but a lower bus speed. So, I'm not so sure which one has the better overall performance. I would assume that the higher model number should mean faster performance (6000 series compared to 9000 series).