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DerbyGuyDoug
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newbie on site, avid collector looking for answers and buy/sell/trade

Post by DerbyGuyDoug » Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:26 pm

Hello all,
I've collected derby cars for quite a while and amassed quite a few. I have a few that putting a date on is a lil difficult, for me. Looking for a big brain on vintage cars. Early.
Also, I'm entertaining buy/sell/ trade.
I'll post pics when I get a chance to take some. I've probably got around 200-250 all together, stretching the entire gamut of decades. I'm also into the "track" cars or "neighborhood" cars from the 40's through the 60's. I probably have around a dozen of these.
Thanks!
DerbyDoug



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whodathunkit
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newbie on site, avid collector looking for answers and buy/sell/trade

Post by whodathunkit » Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:49 am

Hi Doug!

If your willing to post a few photos
of the cars you are looking to put dates on.

I'd be willing to help out if I can.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?

DerbyGuyDoug
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Re: newbie on site, avid collector looking for answers and buy/sell/trade

Post by DerbyGuyDoug » Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:35 pm

I appreciate it, I'm currently away from home so it'll be a couple days. Main question about one in particular is about the wheels.it looks like a typical late 50's/ early 60's car, lead paint, but the wheels are thicker than normal. Side profile of the wheel looks as it should.



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whodathunkit
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Re: newbie on site, avid collector looking for answers and buy/sell/trade

Post by whodathunkit » Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:14 pm

DerbyGuyDoug wrote: Main question about one in particular is about the wheels
.it looks like a typical late 50's/ early 60's car, lead paint, but the wheels are thicker than normal. Side profile of the wheel looks as it should.

Doug,
To share a few photos of some pinewood derby wheel types that look like the typical 1956 beta crafts wheels.
In the photo below :
The wheel type seen on the top are Royal Ranger wheels bottom wheels are 1956- mid 70's beta crafts wheels. (These wheels are thin )
The Royal Ranger wheel has spokes on one side but look like the 1956 beta craft wheel on the opposite side of the wheel.
Image

The wheel type you are asking about are thicker then normal .. but also looks like typical 50's -60's wheel.(from a side view)
Like you I'm also and avid collector of all things pinewood derby.. So I'll share a wheel style that has baffled me as a collector.
( As I'm hoping this is the wheel style you are asking about as well!)

In the next photo:
The wheels seen are wider and have hubs and mold numbers like today's wheels . But from a side view look like the 1956 beta crafts wheel.
Image
Hope you can see the hubs in the photo.
Image
Wheel to the left uses a hub and is wider then the thin 1956 beta crafts wheel to the right.

To walk you threw the kits and wheel types:
viewtopic.php?t=5613

Hope it helps you out Doug!
And that maybe we can shed some light on this wheel style as well.)


Mark.
Last edited by whodathunkit on Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.


What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?

DerbyGuyDoug
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Re: newbie on site, avid collector looking for answers and buy/sell/trade

Post by DerbyGuyDoug » Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:37 pm

Awesome! Those are the wheels! Bottom on the left. I'm glad you know what I'm talking about! Am I delirious in thinking these could be earlier than the '56?



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whodathunkit
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Re: newbie on site, avid collector looking for answers and buy/sell/trade

Post by whodathunkit » Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:26 pm

Well there were kit's offered in 1955 for the 2nd La parks & recreation race .. as we know from Joe at Pinewood pro.
http://www.pinewoodpro.com/pinewood-derby-history.php

Maybe this wheel style was used then for there kit type. (I'm just taking a guess at it here!)
As I have been unable to put a date to this very wheel style or to track down any info on this PWD wheel type . However..
I have seen a few PWD cars in some goggle links using this very wheel style and using wooden struts and large headed roofing nail axle type.
Like this one.Image

So like you Doug.. it would be nice to be able to put a date to this wheel and kit type.
Hope what I have shared helps you out in some small way.
Last edited by whodathunkit on Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.


What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?

DerbyGuyDoug
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Re: newbie on site, avid collector looking for answers and buy/sell/trade

Post by DerbyGuyDoug » Sun Jul 10, 2016 6:46 pm

As long as I've been collecting I've only run into 2 cars with this set up, I actually purchased the 2nd one I found. Because of the oddity, because of the rarity, I have to think these are early.



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whodathunkit
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Re: newbie on site, avid collector looking for answers and buy/sell/trade

Post by whodathunkit » Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:19 pm

DerbyGuyDoug wrote:As long as I've been collecting I've only run into 2 cars with this set up, I actually purchased the 2nd one I found. Because of the oddity, because of the rarity, I have to think these are early.
Same here on the collecting end.. This wheel type is very rare and hard to find like you I find them odd from all the rest of wheel types.
Here is an 11-1974 PWD kit ad.. before the new CMI kits came out.
Image
Whats very odd to me in the ad photo.. are the wheels seen on the built car to the wheels seen lose for the kit.
The wheels on the built car show a large dome where the lose wheels show a small dome type. ( very odd and strange must say )
Check out the wheel type seen on the cars in this early ad:
Image

Hard to pen point as a collector.. oddly enough my first discovery of this wheel type was discovered in this 8 car bulk set.
Image
Image
Image
kit number 1699 same as the early PWD ad numbers for the 8 car bulk set kits from BSA supply.
The instruction sheet for this kit type: (is the one with the notice seen on the top.
Image
Image
Image
Last edited by whodathunkit on Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.


What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?

DerbyGuyDoug
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Re: newbie on site, avid collector looking for answers and buy/sell/trade

Post by DerbyGuyDoug » Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:26 pm

Good stuff, the difference in the look of the domed wheels could just be the lighting difference.either way, really cool material you've got! Thanks again for sharing!



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whodathunkit
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Re: newbie on site, avid collector looking for answers and buy/sell/trade

Post by whodathunkit » Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:33 pm

You're welcome Doug!
Good talking to a collector as well who fells the same way about the wheel type.. I know what your saying about them.


What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?

DerbyGuyDoug
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Re: newbie on site, avid collector looking for answers and buy/sell/trade

Post by DerbyGuyDoug » Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:42 am

I'll be home tonight, I'll try n get a pic up of the car I have with them. Cheers!



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whodathunkit
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Re: newbie on site, avid collector looking for answers and buy/sell/trade

Post by whodathunkit » Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:09 pm

Hope to see your car pic soon!
Here are some thoughts about the 8 car box kit and it's wheel type shared..

The very first 8 car boxed sets seen in early 1955 adds.. sold for $2.75 with the catalog number of 1699.
In the year of 1956 Boy's Life magazine had no PWD kit adds in any 1956 issues.. ( Very Strange!)
in the fall of 57 there is a price change for $2.95 for the 8 car boxed sets.

The first 8 car boxed sets with the catalog number of 1699 sold for 18 to 21 years depending on the history..
for the cmi kit change.. 1974 or 1977!

Beta crafts boxed them in sets of 8 to be sold to Cub Scout Packs..
The 8 car boxed set shared in the photos is a Cub Scout version as seen on the kit box as Official Cub Scouts Pinewood Derby Kit.
There is no price seen on the kit.. to put a date on it .. as far as price change.

What is strange is all the rest of 8 car boxed sets I have in a collection..
say Boy Scouts on the box and also have a catalog number as 1699 and a price as $2.95

Anyhow Doug You could be right on your thoughts about the wheel type.


What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?

DerbyGuyDoug
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Re: newbie on site, avid collector looking for answers and buy/sell/trade

Post by DerbyGuyDoug » Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:42 pm

I actually tried and found I didn't know how to get a pic up, but I'm just mobile for now so maybe I've gotta do it from a full site?
Anyway, your info on the kits, as detailed as it is, is exactly what I needed to help piece this together. I've spoken to a camp "historian" at Camp Miakonda near me and he knew what I was lookin for but had no answers as to date either. I've looked at relatives old photos, published photos and specifically pics from Don Murphy's pack to try and date them. No luck.
I think they are one of two things:
1.) one of the earliest versions that predates standard regulations. Hopefully...
2.) a wheel that was from something else or like today's knock offs just from then.

Also, what do you know of the sticker origins?
How are the colors designated?



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whodathunkit
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Post by whodathunkit » Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:15 am

Hi Doug

Not to go :offtopic: in the trading post section here! (But to trade some info about the decals with you.)

As far as posting pics with a computer
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=10
I myself have not tried the smart phones to post pics with so i have no idea.

You asked about the decals and color types!
Joe of Pinewood Pro & I had an email chat about the pinewood derby name plates decals some time back
if cars could be dated by the decals seen in them.
At the time we were also talking about the Cub Scout kit you and I were talking about with the wider wheel type as well.

I shared this with him at the time:
The 1959 Boy's life article where the 8 car box kits and decal name plates were talked about .
Image
You'll have to click or tap on the image to enlarge it to read what is said in the lower right about the name plate decals.
Then check out the photo in the lower left to see a white 8 car box set seen in photo as well.
Here is a pic of 2 different 8 car box top types.
Image
The one on the left 1957 price $ 2.95 the one on the right 1974 price on it $ 3.25 ( see the 11-74 ad i shared for the kit price for that year.)

For the decal name plates: I would say based off the early ad seen in the pic below.
Image
These ads were first seen packed in with the 8 car box kits.. Note no price seen on this ad!
I also have one with a price seen on it as $ 2.95 ( however note the name plate decal type seen!)
This name plate decal type was also seen in the car drawing for the early car building instructions sheets.
I would say that the long box [ Pinewood derby ] name plates were first used from 1956 into the late 60's.

Then there were also some small box decal name plates.. Like what's seen on the goggle link car photo way above.
Instead of the long box [ Pinewood Derby ] decals.
It's seen as Pinewood on top.. then Derby on bottom.. Inside a much smaller box.

I would have to say.. That this type of name plate was used more in the single kits
that were first offered in 1961 cat # 1690 49 cents for price ... then in the 8 car box set kits.

Then there were the diamond shaped name plate decals as well... Maybe late 60's into 70's.
(This type was also offered in the single kits as well.)

Here are some decal name plates pics in the diamond shape and the long box type:
these were offered in Yellow, Red, Blue, White, for the two types of name plates offered in the 8 car box kits.
Image
I have also seen some that have an orange back ground in the lettering and in the number box back ground as well.

Some small box name plate decals seen in early single kits with the price of 49 cents.
I have also seen some in a green or yellow and red back ground color!
Image
Image
I have a single kit like the one seen above (same type of package and price of 49 cents) that has a black diamond decal
with yellow lettering and yellow box numbers.
(like whats seen in pic below!)
Image
I would say that this type was used from 1965 -74 maybe as a guess.
Some more of the 8 car box decals from the mid 70's.
Note how these change from a yellow to an orange/red look in the lettering seen. ( I would say this type 68 to 74.)
Image

This would be my best guess
On how the name plate decals and the color in the lettering changed threw the years..
Just based off the kits i have in a collection and how the prices seen on them changed threw the years as well.

Anyhow Doug
I hope the info I have traded with you about the name plate decals types helps.
Whoda.
Last edited by whodathunkit on Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:48 pm, edited 9 times in total.


What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?

DerbyGuyDoug
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Re: newbie on site, avid collector looking for answers and buy/sell/trade

Post by DerbyGuyDoug » Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:27 am

Awesome, my questions were based around the long box decal, and what if any could be derived by color or size. You are a wealth of knowledge sir, thank you!



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