Derby Talk

I just stopped at the Scout Shop in Northern Virginia and found the kits with new wheels and the same date code pictured above. Also, I combed through the replacement wheel sets in the clear plastic tubes with the black tops. I found 2 sets of new wheels (black) out of 50 or so. The new wheels have a code in the top right of the UPC label that the old ones don't have. In my case, the code on the new wheels was IN1009, so it seems that it could be an inventory code for Oct 09. I'll check back every week or two and try to verify.
Buckeyefan

I received the wheels we ordered for our Pack, and I did finally find the code you mention on the wheel/axle kits. So far, it appears that these "IN1009" codes are only on the BLACK and YELLOW wheels, which makes sense since they have been out "in the wild" for the longest. The other wheels we ordered all came in with the new mold (a total of 100 sets in all, with mixed colors), but they did not have the date/product code.

Here is a photo showing the codes on the black and yellow, and without codes on the other new wheels:




Traveler

As mentioned previously, I received 100 wheel sets today from BSA Supply for distribution to our Pack. We decided that to circumvent any issues with different wheel types, we would issue a set of the new wheels to each Scout. Additionally, to play it up a bit, we are giving each Rank a different color.

WARNING:

While 98 out of the 100 sets came in correctly packaged, I did find two BLUE sets that had a mix of 3 2009 wheels and 1 1999 wheel! AMAZING! My guess is that since blue was the last one to appear in the 2009 molds, it is a temporary issue of rotation during the packaging phase. Either way, I suggest that you check every tube carefully prior to buying the wheels if you can. By this time next year it certainly won't be an issue, but for now I would double check. Fortunately, I will be able to return the two blue sets to BSA Supply for replacement.

If you look at the tube of wheels below, you will see that only the top wheel has a mold mark. The other set with the rogue wheel was the third wheel in the tube, so it seems to be random.




Traveler

Good posts, Traveler! Thank you!

MaxV's latest newsletter has a wealth of information on the new wheels (and a tidbit on the "not-so-new" axles) including good recommendations for Pinewood Derby leaders http://www.maximum-velocity.com/pinewood_derby_times_v9_i2.htm#feature.

His discussion on whether to require old wheels or allow the 2009 wheels did bring to mind an interesting, but not necessarily happy, situation. What happens if your pack/district/council requires the older style wheel, but by the time your derby rolls around, it is difficult to find the older style wheels in stock at the local shop since it appears that a cutover to the 2009 wheel is in progress?

I have yet to hear of any rules that SPECIFICALLY outlaw the 2009 wheels(or conversely, require only 1999 wheels). Technically speaking, both the 1999 wheels and the 2009 wheels are "Official BSA Wheels", and should be allowed to run. Almost all rules that exist state, "Use only Official Scout Grand Prix Wheels and Axles", or similar. The problem is not so much about the rules, but the potential for interpreting them incorrectly. During inspection, someone may not understand or know about the 2009 wheel and then assume they are machined wheels, forcing a DQ of the car.

Most issues seem to be that there has been such limited information (outside of those following the PWD forums) about the new wheels that no one really knows about them. Almost all Scout Shops will give you a blank stare when you ask them about "the new wheels". Because of that, people currently writing and issuing rules are still copying last year's rule set, which again does not technically DQ the 2009 mold.

As I mentioned previously, we took the approach of giving all the Scouts the new wheels up front. This way, it will avoid the future issues that are bound to occur. What we didn't want is for parents to complain that some scouts received the new wheels, while others received the old. It is very clear that BSA Supply is shipping all new mold wheels at this time (in the spare tubes), and I would suspect that they may even make an announcement on it before year's end, once the kits start shipping 100% complete with the new mold. For all we know, these new wheels may be announced as the "2010 Wheels", as part of the 100th Anniversary rollout.....

Just my thoughts....

Traveler

I think the rule issue most have been concerned about is where coned hubs are outlawed. But as you say, these are 'official BSA' wheels.

Having said that, I think the biggest issue won't be rules, it will be upset parents (as always). Pack's that have recently bought kits for their scouts will have whatever mix of new/old mold wheels their luck will bring them. If all BSA wheels are allowed, someone who's kid loses will probably be able to find some other kid's car that won or did quite well and had the new wheels. Once they hear that the new wheels are inherently easier to prepare and faster, there is going to be some upset parents.

Stan's suggestion near the beginnning of this thread for leveling the playing field by allowing similar modifications to old mold wheels is probably beyond the capability and desired complexity of most entrants. Plus it would take foresight by the PWD chair in setting these rules up front.

I commend Traveler's Pack leaders for having the foresight to buy the new molds for all kids. I would not have been that gutsy at this time unless someone at BSA was virtually guaranteeing me the new molds - what if only 20 % were the new style ?

As others stated, I expect most Packs will not have changed their rules in advance. By the time they start working on their cars it could be too late. The scenario for not being able to buy old style wheels in February is quite logical. By then it could be real interesting around PWD race tracks

Quadad,
I guess that it was more of a "calculated risk" rather than being "gutsy". I have been following the info on the new wheels since May of this year, calling BSA Supply, calling/e-mailing others, and watching the posts here on DerbyTalk and elsewhere. In the end, I even ordered a "test batch" of wheels to test the situation, knowing that they would be used eventually for test cars, or outlaw cars I would build with my son. Personally, I completely believe that the 2009 mold is switched over for the wheel/axle tubes. After calling today to ask for a replacement for my mis-matched wheels, I was met with a very responsive approach. As soon as I told them what happened, they immediately offered to send new mold wheels at no cost. Pinewood derby complete kits, however, are probably a month or three away from this same certainty.

Ultimately, when I spoke with our PWD Chairman (I am probably taking over next year and am assisting this year), we agreed that we should give all of the Scouts the best possible and most equal chance. Avoiding controversy was one goal, but the most important one was to provide all of the Scouts with an equal opportunity to compete.

As for a guarantee, I can pretty much guarantee that the BLACK and YELLOW are absolutely available in the new mold only (note the new inventory code shown). All other wheels are at about 99.5%, IMHO, based on the shipment I received for my Pack. For those that don't need to order kits until after January 1, I suspect that you will be "good to go" by that time as well, considering that there have been reports of the new kits showing up around the country.

Good luck!

Traveler

What we have done for our district rules is to prescribe different tread turning limits for the two styles of wheels...

1999: Gotta leave trace of "tread marks" somewhere around the wheel.
2009: Gotta leave untouched "tread marks" all the way around the wheels.

This does not totally equalize them, but does do two things:

1. It makes folks aware of the issue and implications, including how to tell them apart, and
2. Brings the performance of the two wheel styles much closer together.

The problem totally "goes away" if wheel mods were unrestricted, but I (personally) don't want to go there.

Here's an update from the Scout Shop in Springfield VA. I just picked up 135 PWD kits there, all with the new wheels and the IN0809 code on the box. When I spoke to the staff there, they told me that they have nearly sold out of their initial order of 1,000 kits (all new) and will order 3,000 more. At this point, they believe they will only see new kits from here on out. They are still working through their stock of old replacement wheel sets, but had a few new sets mixed in with the old. The new sets were black only, no new replacement wheel sets in any color. This is a pretty high volume shop, they usually go through 10,000+ kits each PWD season.
Buckeyefan

Has anyone run any tests to determine how much time the step on the outer hub adds? Runs with it vs. runs without it?

That will be a difficult question to answer in general, since a number of design and performance factors affect its effect. For example,
Toe-out: increases the tendency of the wheel to migrate to the nailhead, which increases the normal force against the nailhead, which increases the importance of shifting the contact area toward the center of wheel rotation.
Camber: same trend as toe-out, but different extent.
Nailhead shaping: affects the radial location of the hub-nailhead contact area relative to the center of wheel rotation.

In a perfect "dead-on alignment" world (no transverse forces), the question is moot. But since that world doesn't exist, the question is still important.

The optimum solution appears to be to shape the nailhead so that it contacts the hub at the smallest possible radius.

I addressed the issue of transition by informing contestants that there are new wheels, that the new wheels are significantly superior to the old wheels, and adjusted the minimum weight for each wheel down to 2.5 grams from 3.0 grams. Our Race Rules were approved yesterday:

http://seminoletrails.com/cfc/derby/docs/2010CFCRULES_FINAL.pdf


enjoy!

Pack529holycross,

That's by far the best set of rules I've seen to date...

Great job!

pack529holycross, Good set of rules. Our pack Pinewood derby commitee meeting is in 3 weeks, I'll bring up some of your ideas there. If its OK with you.