New BSA Wheel and Axle??

[sporty]

I think it's been long enough, that really people need to start calling there council and district and get them to inquire and get bsa to address this issue.

Its always a option to call texas and talk to bsa or convey to them the issues here.

Sporty

[gpraceman]

I think it's been long enough, that really people need to start calling there council and district and get them to inquire and get bsa to address this issue.

I do think that is a good idea. I'm sure that the number of race coordinators that know of these new wheels is in the vast minority. Better to get them thinking of this issue earlier rather than later, especially for district and council races where rules need to trickle down to the packs.

Its always a option to call texas and talk to bsa or convey to them the issues here.

Unfortunately, BSA seems rather clueless as to the rabidity of PWD racers, as evidenced by their nonchalant roll out of the new wheels and few people within the organization that even know about them. Though, maybe if they get enough calls they might try to do a better job of flushing out the older stock.

[sporty]

It's your turn viewers and posters, get the calls out to them to address your concerns


texas, national BSA

972-580-2000

Sporty

[Dad of 3]

I opened the new wheels in front of my scout shop manager, who said they are the same wheels we always had, to show her the difference. She didn't seem at all concerned. Parts is Parts. I went on to try to explain how many boys have the hearts in pinewood derby and that even a thousandth of a second could make a big difference. I can't prove it yet but all indications point to the fact that these new wheels give you at least that much of an advantage. After discussing with the committee the option of purchasing wheels for everyone or banning the new wheels altogether, the decision was made to ban the new wheels from this years pinewood derby. We still have an ample supply of the older wheels and want everybody on the same playing field. Hopefully next years kits will come with the new wheels.

[Pinewood Daddy]

A ban sounds a bit premature. You don't know if they will come in the kits soon.

[Dad of 3]

We have already purchased our kits. I plan on checking through them to make sure they don't have the new wheels. From what I have seen so far I think we are safe.

[Traveler]

I called scoutstuff.org and asked about the wheels last week. Basically, the guy I spoke with seemed a bit upset with my questions, and told me that "they are all official wheels". In any case, I got him to tell me a couple of things:

1. New wheels are available to order in colors as well as black. However, when I placed the order for sets of yellow and blue, I only received the yellow wheels in the new mold.

2. Kits likely do not have new wheels yet. As they run their inventory first in/first out, they need to run through their stock of old kits first. This is probably why I received "old" wheels in the blue color.

3. As soon as the old kits are gone, new kits will ship with the updated molds.

So, from my perspective, the later you order your kits, the more likely you are to get one with a new wheel mold. On the other hand, if you want to be sure to get the old ones, it's probably best to order them now.

[gpraceman]

Basically, the guy I spoke with seemed a bit upset with my questions

If these guys are perturbed now, just wait until it gets closer to peak season and more people have heard about these new wheels! They will get a lot more requests for the new wheels. BSA really doesn't seem to know its PWD customers very well. They should have predicted that such a change would have had performance implications and thus would cause a stir.

As they run their inventory first in/first out, they need to run through their stock of old kits first.

It doesn't seem like they strictly follow FIFO, based on feedback. Some have ordered wheels and got the new, while others got the old. Supposedly these wheels started circulating way back in January.

[Mr. Slick]

FYI, I just got the 100th Anniversary Edition of the Big Rig kit. All of the wheels are the NEW style! I'm going to guess that since this is a new product this year all of the kits will have the new wheels.

The sad thing is that the trailer is a cardboard box. . . you will have to find your own piece of wood if you want something other then a "box" trailer.

[Go Bubba Go]

FYI, I just got the 100th Anniversary Edition of the Big Rig kit. All of the wheels are the NEW style! I'm going to guess that since this is a new product this year all of the kits will have the new wheels.

Cool. Didn't know they were gonna put that kit out.

Bubba

[priority]

FYI, I just got the 100th Anniversary Edition of the Big Rig kit. All of the wheels are the NEW style!

I stopped by the Scout Shop on the North Loop in Houston. One Big Rig was in stock and it had the new wheels. So, Mr. Slick may be onto something. Not conclusive proof, but a nice correlation may be emerging.

FYI...The stock of extra wheels was all the old style.

[Pinewood Daddy]

Our race isn't until March 19th. I think I'm going to try to hold off until mid January to buy the new wheels just in case our District decides to outlaw them if they aren't available in the kits. Or I may just buy some and build another car for myself.

[quadad]

The more I think about the 'wheel deal', the more I think that most Packs are going to end up having to allow the new wheels as well as older mold wheels with allowances for similar characteristics (lighter mass, coned hubs, slightly smaller diameter, etc.). I think the definitive statement on this is the fact that BSA treats them all the same. There is no guarantee on what you will receive if you order today, or a month from today. So unless your Pack/District/Council is going to take responsibility for insuring that they have enough of either the older or newer mold wheels for everyone to use in advance of and during their building (how ever many that might be and for a fair period of time) and mandates their use, you have no way to insure what the racers are going to have.

Indecision will eventually turn into a forced decision. It seems like no one has yet reported new mold wheels in the car kits, but that day will come once shops order in mass for the season. And when it does, there is no guarantee that they are going to be all the same. If a Pack waits too long and they can't find enough of whatever style they prefer in the Scout shop, what are they going to do ? I think that the rules against lighter wheels, coned hubs, etc., are going to have to be scratched out. You won't be able to enforce it if people can't buy them the way your rules say.

[Go Bubba Go]

The more I think about the 'wheel deal', the more I think that most Packs are going to end up having to allow the new wheels as well as older mold wheels...

While I suppose it is possible at the Pack level to prohibit the new wheels (assuming you have enough on hand to cover everyone, and especially if you do and you need to "clear them out"), the decision at our Pack will be driven by the rules for the Council race. At this point it appears the new wheels will be allowed for the Council race, with only minor revisions needed to the Council rules. Since our Pack chooses to participate in the Council race, we basically set our Pack rules identical to the rules for the Council race. We will allow (but not require) the new wheels.

I think that the rules against lighter wheels, coned hubs, etc., are going to have to be scratched out. You won't be able to enforce it if people can't buy them the way your rules say.

Assuming you are going to allow the new wheels I think there are two issues in play here, one having to do with whether or not modifications to your existing rules are required in order for the new wheels to pass muster, and the other having to do with whether or not you attempt to "level the playing field" between builders who get old vs. new wheels in their kit.

1) Whether or not rule modifications are required in order for the new wheels to pass muster depends on how the current rules are written - if the current rules specify characteristics of the wheel that the new wheels violate (i.e. "no coned hubs allowed", "wheels must weigh 3.6 grams", etc.), then the rules would have to be modified in order for the new wheels to pass muster. If the current rules, however, specify only restrictions to modifications i.e. "no modification of wheels will be allowed, except that burrs or excess plastic from the factory molding process (if any) may be removed or sanded", or if your existing rules are pretty liberal with respect to mods and weight, then the new wheels may already meet your existing rules.

2) Leveling the playing field - frankly I don't think the rules should be tweaked to this end. If you have existing rules along the lines of "no modification of wheels will be allowed, except that burrs or excess plastic from the factory molding process (if any) may be removed or sanded", then both types of wheels pass muster "out of the box", but the new wheels would seem to hold a distinct advantage over the old due to their "out of the box" advantages (ex. coned hubs). But I don't think it is necessary to tweak the rules to begin to "write into" them the ability for a builder to modify an old set of wheels to be more competitive with the new (i.e. can cone hubs, can lighten wheels - but only to 2.6 grams, etc. etc.). I plan to inform our parents of the apparent difference between the old and new wheels, and of the possibility that they may get one type or the other in their kits. If through the "luck of the draw" a builder (or most / all) gets a kit with old style wheels, then IMO it is up to them to determine a) whether they received the old or new wheels, b) whether they believe that the new wheels really offer an advantage over the old, and c) whether it is worth it to them to buy a set of the new wheels for $2 in order to gain that advantage.

Bubba

[quadad]

2) Leveling the playing field - frankly I don't think the rules should be tweaked to this end. ... the new wheels would seem to hold a distinct advantage over the old due to their "out of the box" advantages (ex. coned hubs). But I don't think it is necessary to tweak the rules to begin to "write into" them the ability for a builder to modify an old set of wheels to be more competitive with the new (i.e. can cone hubs, can lighten wheels - but only to 2.6 grams, etc. etc.).

I think that this is the only point that we differ on. I am essentially agreeing (I believe) with a much earlier comment of Stan's in this thread.

Unfortunately, if you or anyone else makes that speech, I think this is what the parents are going to hear "some of you might receive the faster wheels without it costing you a nickel, some of you might be able to buy the faster wheels, but for those of you who aren't so lucky (one way or another), we aren't going to allow you to modify the slower wheels to be competitive with the faster ones." Remember, I am saying that this is what they will hear, not what you or I might be saying. If you did this you would take away some of the ability of the Scout/parent to work together.

Bottom line to me is that an event that is supposed to be fun, but always has some amount of bad feelings associated with it, could end up being much worse in that regard than ever this year - no matter what you do. The saving grace is that we hope that the wheels are all the same next year and as Sporty has commented, these wheels should help make the races more competitive (if everyone gets them). I think you have to consider this year in a very unique manner, i.e. open things up a bit more.