New BSA Wheel and Axle??

[sporty]

In the end, when all of this settles down and they are easier to get or come in the kits. When all scouts get them.

This is going to change pinewood derby !! This may sound like a big statement.

but every year I see more than 60% of a local pinewood derby race at a scout pack, not do really anything to the wheels or axles.

now the average scout is going to have much better odds with racing against a more advanced racers.

I'm not saying will win, but I am saying they will not loose as easily or as bad as what I have seen in the past.

We tend to forget is our own quest for perfection of going faster or better alignment, wheel work, ect, ect.

That the average scout family get the car out of the box, cuts out a shape and puts the wheels and axles on and they are happy and filled with pride as one should always be of there work.

But come race day, the cars are going to be faster then if they had used the old wheels.

The biggest complaint that I have is, trying to convey to packs, council , ect. That they need to get the info out as soon as they know, rules, info about the wheels, ect.

Many packs and council do not know, let alone scout reseller shops.

Sporty

[piazza]

Our District rules state "BSA class wheels are to be used." The new wheels are BSA wheels, right? Then there is no issue in using them in our District. Actually, I don't see why any BSA unit would not allow the use of the new BSA wheels.

There sure is a lot of hype going on about those wheels. Could there be some people sweating over it? Competition is what it is all about!

[Go Bubba Go]

2) Leveling the playing field - frankly I don't think the rules should be tweaked to this end. ... the new wheels would seem to hold a distinct advantage over the old due to their "out of the box" advantages (ex. coned hubs). But I don't think it is necessary to tweak the rules to begin to "write into" them the ability for a builder to modify an old set of wheels to be more competitive with the new (i.e. can cone hubs, can lighten wheels - but only to 2.6 grams, etc. etc.).

I think that this is the only point that we differ on. I am essentially agreeing (I believe) with a much earlier comment of Stan's in this thread.

Unfortunately, if you or anyone else makes that speech, I think this is what the parents are going to hear "some of you might receive the faster wheels without it costing you a nickel, some of you might be able to buy the faster wheels, but for those of you who aren't so lucky (one way or another), we aren't going to allow you to modify the slower wheels to be competitive with the faster ones." Remember, I am saying that this is what they will hear, not what you or I might be saying. If you did this you would take away some of the ability of the Scout/parent to work together.

Bottom line to me is that an event that is supposed to be fun, but always has some amount of bad feelings associated with it, could end up being much worse in that regard than ever this year - no matter what you do. The saving grace is that we hope that the wheels are all the same next year and as Sporty has commented, these wheels should help make the races more competitive (if everyone gets them). I think you have to consider this year in a very unique manner, i.e. open things up a bit more.

Unfortunately I think you are 100% correct about "could end up being much worse in that regard than ever this year - no matter what you do." Especially the "no matter what you do" part.

On the one hand, with my approach you risk the "How come his boy got the new ones in his kit and my boy didn't, that's not fair" (regardless of the lengths to which we would go to ensure the handing out of the kits was in an entirely random order, even up to and including having the guy most likely to complain about "unfairness" perform the random draws himself). Unfortunately there are those folks who will spend hours fuming and accusing and criticizing rather than spend $2.00 to buy a replacement set of wheels, even if you offer to personally deliver a set to their house.

On the other hand, imagine trying to write a set of rules that allows for modification of both sets of wheels to ensure that, in the end, they are entirely comparable (we can't allow the old wheel recipients to end up with an advantage over the new wheel recipients, that wouldn't be fair either). Given the difference in their characteristics "out of the box", I don't think it could be done, at least not in a fashion that your typical Boy / Parent could execute and that you could reasonably enforce. Example: if you let the old wheel guys shave down to 2.6 grams, how do you ensure they shaved the right amount from the right areas that they don't end up with a lower moment of inertia and faster wheel than those who received new wheels and weren't allowed to reduce weight? And how do you measure that? Measuring just the weight is enough of a pain to begin with (we don't, we verify "no modifications" otherwise)...

From my perspective (as long as there are plenty of new wheels available for $2 a sleeve), I would rather give the parents the heads up (a good portion won't even care), and leave the responsibility in their hands to deal with the issue if they end up with the old wheels.

For the people in our Pack, my belief is that the least amount of whining will occur with the approach we are choosing. But will there be those who would rather whine than spend the extra $2 (hey, Johnny didn't have to...), you betcha.

Bubba

[gpraceman]

There sure is a lot of hype going on about those wheels. Could there be some people sweating over it? Competition is what it is all about!

The real issue for many will be in trying to even the playing field for all racers. Personally, I don't think you can do that with a mix of old and new wheels, unless you allow modifications to the old wheels to make them as light as the new. Not many people have the tools or the know how to do that.

Even if there is no real performance advantage with the new wheels (which I do not believe), there is already a perception that there is. So, if racers have difficulty getting a hold of the new wheels, there may be a whole lot of griping by parents (not the kids of course) about an uneven playing field. It's a can of worms of the BSA's making, yet it will be parents and race coordinators with the heartburn this year. Maybe next season there will be no more old wheels in circulation and it won't be an issue (I would hope).

EDIT:
Looks like Bubba and I were posting at the same time. He pretty much stated the same thing.

[sporty]

I am one to have to say, that testing for me, did show a real advantage, comparing old mold wheels, to the new mold wheels right out of the box.

The advantages do change as one puts more work into the older wheels. The more work you do, the gap begins to equalize between them.

However, The average scout does not go to that level of work on there wheels.

But on the other hand, the more work you put into the new wheels, also improves them.

Still they are not the all wonder ! they will still not overcome a better weight placement and or aligned car.

Sporty

[Go Bubba Go]

EDIT:
Looks like Bubba and I were posting at the same time. He pretty much stated the same thing.

Except that, as usual, you managed to do so using only half as many words.

Bubba

[Davhamm]

So could you Up the price by $2 and explain some kits have old wheels some have new, so to make it fair, Every one who buys a kit will also get a sleeve of new wheels? Use which ever you like.

[FatSebastian]

Those interested in a source of new BSA wheels might be interested in this topic: 100th Anniversary Semi Truck

WinDerby also seems to be advertising the availability of new wheels now. Hopefully more vendors will follow...

[quadad]

So could you Up the price by $2 and explain some kits have old wheels some have new, so to make it fair, Every one who buys a kit will also get a sleeve of new wheels? Use which ever you like.

... It could be that easy or it could be a pain in the drain. Presumably if you wait long enough to get people going, and the parts channel is cleaned out by that time, this would be true. But there is no guarantee at any time if you are ordering from the scout shop because old and new molds are the same part number to them. Its only if you walk into a store and eye ball the parts your self that you will know for sure. Not sure many local stores will have the stock for you to do that.

Just recently saw them shipping old mold style red wheels after others had received new style red wheels.

[winderby]

I now have a pretty substantial stock of 2009 BSA wheels that I have been experimenting with. My hopes were to have a new wheel that would address the inherent flaws of the 1999 mold and equal the playing field for those without access to specialized tools. In their haste, they seem to have lost site of improvements and quality in lieu of saving a few cents. If their objective was simply to reduce cost then they have accomplished their goal and then some.

My observations..

The wheel uses 30% less material and the kit contains 20% less wheels and axles.. for the same price.

The molder seems to be rushing the process a bit as well (time is money, after all). This is most evident in the wheel bore. With all of the wheels I have examined the bore ID is larger in the middle than at the ends. This can be accomplished by ejecting the wheel before it has a chance to adequately cool or the mold cooling lines are not properly designed. This results in the hub compressing as it is ejected off of the pin squishing the still soft plastic hub bore on the way out. This makes for some serious bore problems. The wheel will not spin true as the bore is deformed. The after market fix is reaming the bore to a size adequate to get a smooth continuous surface across the entire length of the bore. This phenomena is evident in the 1999 wheel molds as well. But, not quite to this extent.The run out varies quite a bit as well. I attribute this to the same rush job in the molding/cooling process.

On the positive side, the reduced MOI and elimination of the outer tread mold mark is clearly a step in right direction for improving performance. Here are some rudimentary specs..

There is still a lot of work to be done if you want to be competitive. I was not expecting a panacea out-of-box perfection. But, closer attention to the details could have made a big difference.

BTW - The axles I received with the new wheels look and measure the same I was hoping for an improvement there as well).

Again - Don't obsess over a single measure. There is no one single element that will create a winning car. It is a combination of many interdependent measures. Wheels are important. But they don't win races by themselves.

[sporty]

Jerry,

Nice to see you post every now and then ! 2 posts since 2005 !!


You're report provides some very good information. I would enjoy hearing some more on the inner bore issues you are finding, in regards to differance in measurement ?

The 20 sets that I have, I have been very impressed over the new molded stock wheels, performance and quality.

You are actually the first to mention some quality issues, suggestion that the bore is actually worse.

So this is a bit of a surprise, to my own conclusion of my smaller samples.

One thought, would not the bigger inner middle bore be a plus ? with the ends of the bore narrower ?

I would almost wonder if this would not mimic a little threaded bore ? or allow a tad more lube in the middle and tighter on the ends ?


I prepped all my bores aside from my previous test wheels comparion noted somewhere here.

I found no issues and only 1 or 2 wheels that I would not use after prep. Which was only what I have mentioned in another post here, in regards to new bore prep / polish method.

I do not have a indicator that gets into the whole that small or can read finer than .0005.

Are the inner bore varience's greater than .0005 or less than ?


BTW, Still love your hodges lube !!

Sporty

[priority]

I had an entertaining visit to the North Houston (Champions) Scout Shop yesterday evening.

I decided to stop by the Scout Shop on the way home to see if there was any stock of the new wheels. The answer was no, but one of the guys working there asked me if I could use some help when he saw me digging through the 30 or so tubes of wheels they had hanging. When I told him I was looking for some of the "new" wheels, another employee-Allen-spoke up and asked something along the lines of, "Where did you get the info that there are new pinewood derby wheels?" Apparently Allen had spoken to one of the BSA big-wigs just a couple of days ago and had inquired about pending wheel changes. The big-wig uncategorically denied any changes to the wheels. So, I asked permission to open a big-rig kit and a tube of wheels and proceeded to show the two Scout Shop employees the differences. THEY WERE SHOCKED!!! It was blatantly obivious to them without me pointing out anything.

Two more converts that the "unchanged wheels" do have perceptible differences ....thousands more to go....

[gpraceman]

BTW - The axles I received with the new wheels look and measure the same I was hoping for an improvement there as well).

I have only heard Pinewood Extreme reporting that they have seen new axles. They look the same as the old, just about an 1/8" shorter. Shorter is not good, as I see more potential for wheels falling off during a race.

Apparently Allen had spoken to one of the BSA big-wigs just a couple of days ago and had inquired about pending wheel changes. The big-wig uncategorically denied any changes to the wheels. So, I asked permission to open a big-rig kit and a tube of wheels and proceeded to show the two Scout Shop employees the differences. THEY WERE SHOCKED!!! It was blatantly obivious to them without me pointing out anything.

Funny and sad at the same time. Is the BSA upper echelon in denial or are some of them just in the dark? Maybe Allen should give that big-wig a call back.

[sporty]

My inside contact that I spoke with yesterday shared with me alot and I would love to post it. But at this time. I feel inclined not to out in the open.


I will share with you this little bit, The bsa big wigs (main headquarters) have instructed and others have been informed, they are not to tell or acknowledge the new molded wheels yet.

In fear the rush, thet no one will want the old stock wheels. So there will be some kind of official release in the upcoming weeks that co inside with the 100th anniversary theme.


Sporty

[Mr. Slick]

I visited RacerX at DerbyWorx in Millstadt, Illinois on the way back from the Lima, Ohio race and learned that the difference between the old wheels and new wheels is actually "Black and White" - - easy to spot from across the store!



The old wheels have the BLACK tops while the NEW wheels have WHITE tops!.