New BSA Wheel and Axle??

General topics of interest to racers and race coordinators alike.
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Rod Turnbull
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by Rod Turnbull »

priority wrote:if BSA does not flush the 1991 wheels out of inventory, then BSA is about to have a boat-pile (a very large amount for non-economists) of 1991 wheels as soon as these facts are known by a reasonable population of PWD racers
I can see this coming from 10 miles away:

'HEY, YOU GUYS IN CANADA WANT TO BUY SOME WHEELS?'

At our rate of consumption the old wheels would last us more than 6 or 7 years before we had an issue... what am I thinking of... where do you think the old molds are going to end up... DOH!!!
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

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priority wrote:In a stark departure from my normal excursuses (n.b. Randy--your new software does not properly recognize this fine word and insists that it is misspelled) involving the most fundamental of all sciences--physics--I must turn to Economics or The Dismal Science as Thomas Carlyle preferred to call it. There's a law (yes, Economists still pretend to have laws) that describes what will likely happen with the old wheels. This law parades around the town under the appellation of "Gresham's Law". The most oft quoted embodiment of this law is that "bad money drives out the good." The gist--if an authority declares two things are equivalent when they are clearly not, folks will try to get rid of the inferior item by exchanging it for the superior item and/or going out of their way to avoid possessing the inferior item.

Now, if BSA insists that the 2009 Wheel is "equivalent in all respects" to the 1991 wheel (wheel designation terminology borrowed from Doc Jobe, Doc--my apologies for dragging your fine name into an economics discussion) we all currently know and love, and, if the 2009 wheel does provide a substantial advantage in speed (which any reasonable economist trained in the fine art of Newtonian mechanics would conclude), and if BSA does not flush the 1991 wheels out of inventory, then BSA is about to have a boat-pile (a very large amount for non-economists) of 1991 wheels as soon as these facts are known by a reasonable population of PWD racers. You see, Gresham's law says that folks will find every excuse in the book (once again, very technical economist jargon) to exchange the 1991 wheels for the 2009 wheels and take advantage of the less well informed in our society or BSA's exchange policies. And, as noted above, no reasonable PWD racer would willingly pay full price for the 1991 wheels they find on the shelves of their local scout shop. Not exactly congruent will the spirit of Scouting, but, then again, we are talking about the application of a law from the dismal science.
Quite interesting theory and so like human nature.
Randy Lisano
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pwrd by tungsten
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by pwrd by tungsten »

Some folks have already ordered them online in black only
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Stan Pope
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by Stan Pope »

I propose holding off reaching conclusions of performance differences (and castigating the source for a display of incredible stupidity) until we have actually done some on-track comparisons. The comparison of these two generations of wheels seems similar to the comparison when the last major mold change happened... which I think turned out to be "a wash," i.e. the positive changes were almost exactly offset by the negative changes.

In each case, the new generation of wheels introduces some positive performance changes and some negative changes. In combination (and on a "standard Cub Scout track") we might just see another "wash."

What I do see in this newest generation is a reduction in the potential for builders to improve performance by extreme wheel makeovers. The "fundamentals" are still available ... truing, balancing, lubricating, polishing, but there is less to be gained from inertia reduction.

I asked a question earlier about "why" the nail length was shortened. My thought process was that if shortening makes use of a lathe more difficult but does not affect the use of a hand drill, then axle processing is pushed back toward BSA's concept of what a Cub Scout is expected to be able to do.

Maybe, just maybe, BSA is "dumb like a fox." It wouldn't be the first time! :)
Stan
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by Pinewood Daddy »

priority wrote:You see, Gresham's law says that folks will find every excuse in the book (once again, very technical economist jargon) to exchange the 1991 wheels for the 2009 wheels and take advantage of the less well informed in our society or BSA's exchange policies.
I think the only thing wrong with that theory is the boxes are sealed, if you open the boxes and find the old wheels, they are considered used. Will the store take them back?? I wouldn't. If they did you could buy 50 boxes, inspect all the wheels, and bring all the junk back. Not in the Scouting spirit.

BUT!!! Since the new wheels are lighter you could weight the old style wheel & axle set, bring your scale to the store, and weigh every set and find one that is probably 6 grams lighter! I did that to find kits with blocks that weighed in a specific range, I never opened them.

Happy hunting!!! I hope someone finds some soon!!!
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by Dad of 3 »

I just received this email from our Scout Shop Manager:

Per the director at National there is no other wheel coming out. This is a falsehood put out by this other company. The only new wheels were the ones that came out last fall. Please rest assured that anything that does not come out of National is in fact NOT official.
I hope this puts you at ease.
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

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Dad of 3 wrote:This is a falsehood put out by this other company.
What other company? Who started this rumor?? PW Extreme??

Randy - Can you talk to Randy and Randy to confirm??? :scratching:
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by gpraceman »

From Randy M.
...you can pass along that the new wheels have already started showing up in the scout shops in Minnesota . We got a call for a race official yesterday about it. They are only in the new “tubed” wheel/axle kits. I am sending you a few pictures for you to post if you want.
When I get any photos, I'll be sure to post them.
Randy Lisano
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by priority »

Dad of 3 wrote:.....
.... This is a falsehood put out by this other company. ....

I hope this puts you at ease.
Actually, this leaves me wondering where the wheels that Pinewood Extreme (PE) says he has in hand came from?!?! My experience with PE has been positive and they seem to be a first rate company.

Is this just a quality control issue?

Or modified wheels that ended up somehow being returned to National and then re-shipped to PE?

Or a concerted conspiracy effort by Canadians to wreck havoc on American PWD racing? :rofl:
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by Dad of 3 »

The response from the Scout Shop Manager was in response to my forwarding Pinewood Extreme's email to them asking for details.
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

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priority wrote:Actually, this leaves me wondering where the wheels that Pinewood Extreme (PE) says he has in hand came from?!?! My experience with PE has been positive and they seem to be a first rate company.
That has been my experience with them. They have nothing to gain by putting out a false rumor. It would only hurt their reputation and business.
priority wrote:Is this just a quality control issue?
I don't see how. Unless, Kahoot is playing around with new molds and happened to get some of that stuff mixed with the regular wheels. I rather doubt it. Molds cost many tens of thousands of dollars, so Kahoot is not going to just play around making new molds without the knowledge of the BSA. But, I could see pre-production wheels of a new design getting mixed in with regular inventory. All that takes is some under paid employee not paying attention.
priority wrote:Or modified wheels that ended up somehow being returned to National and then re-shipped to PE?
It should be rather obvious if these where regular wheels that have been lathed. How would you then account for the 3 mold marks inside the wheel wall? The wheel wall appears to have the "Official BSA" markings on it and it doesn't have the bit of a step up that the current design does. It would be some trick to machine that step out of there to make it appear as if it was never there and to leave the lettering intact.
priority wrote:Or a concerted conspiracy effort by Canadians to wreck havoc on American PWD racing? :rofl:
That is the most likely scenario. The ring leader is Rod Turnbull. :lol:

Or maybe some Chinese company is trying to steal part of the PWD market and is putting out a counterfeit wheel. They are paying someone to slip some into the BSA stock to provide confusion. :rofl:
Randy Lisano
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by gpraceman »

OK, conspiracy theorists, maybe these will put the issue to rest.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Old axle (longer) next to new axle (shorter)
Image

Image

Image

Image
Randy Lisano
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by gpraceman »

From the above images I do note that the new wheel has sidewall lettering with a registered trademark symbol ®, whereas the current design has just a trademark (TM) symbol. I believe it was 2005 when BSA finally got their claimed trademark registered. If BSA was to put out a new wheel, they certainly would not use the TM symbol. They are rather uptight about such a detail.
Randy Lisano
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by Go Bubba Go »

gpraceman wrote:OK, conspiracy theorists, maybe these will put the issue to rest.
Probably not.

I'm still inclined to go with the Canadian mischief theory. Rod Turnbull for President... er... I mean... er... Rod Turnbull for Prime Minister.

Bubba

p.s. The seams on the new wheels kinda make me nervous, esp. the ones right next to the bore...
"Who's Grandpa's neighbor?"... Phil Davis, Down and Derby
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by gpraceman »

If those photos don't put it to rest, maybe this from Bill Launius at Derby Worx, aka RacerX, will.
RacerX wrote:Ok, here is the deal. I was in meetings with the B.S.A. last week in Charlotte, NC so I have the REAL SKINNY and the wheels too!!!

The B.S.A. had the current molds as they put it “Cleaned up, repaired or replaced” since they were getting old and worn. Some of the molds dated back to 1985. THESE up-dated wheels have been slowly introduced into the supply chain since some time late January (I and National supply are surprised that more people have not seen them yet). The B.S.A. dose not consider this to be a big change or improvement, just a reworking of the existing designs due to age and wear, also it is not a announced change or improvement as some of the crazies think it should be and no one was informed at national supply outside of purchasing. I don’t understand why everyone thinks the B.S.A. should make like perfect parts for the Pinewood Derby, the real beauty of PWD is teaching, showing and correcting the little imperfections of the existing kit and truly succeeding as a father and son team, if everything is PREFECT then what?

We have several fresh sets that were given to us by the purchasing agent we work with for experimental reasons but there will be a period that we see both designs (whether it is fair or not, the B.S.A. understands very little about the performance and fundamentals of PWD) then once the old existing ones are gone this will be the current wheel. There will be a pretty good period in which the old design is around with existing stock and colored wheels on national supply’s shelves.

My bet is the old wheel (in a good base piece) will be still desired and very fast.

Hope this helps.

Bill
Randy Lisano
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Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
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