New BSA Wheel and Axle??

General topics of interest to racers and race coordinators alike.
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Rod Turnbull
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by Rod Turnbull »

Stan Pope wrote:Interesting. Do you think that someone modifies finished wheels? Or might your wheels be produced using modified BSA molds? (Modified by milling a dimple where the S and A would be.)
I can only guess that they are using older modified BSA molds since the letters that are covered would be the results you would get if you ground off the SA on the mold itself, as you said.
Stan Pope wrote:Are there counterbalancing blobs diametrically opposite? Or is that additional balancing up to the builder?
There are no obvious counter balances and typically we are not allow to modify the wheels in any way. :(


Things in general are kind of laid back up here... I'm sure no one would say anything if we use BSA wheels from the American kits or the B## wheels that come in our kits. In their unmodified form I can't see there being a big difference even if the balance is off slightly... you have to figure that they need to actually be round and have the axle hole in the center before balance matters much, LOL.
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Stan Pope
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by Stan Pope »

Rod Turnbull wrote:In their unmodified form I can't see there being a big difference even if the balance is off slightly... you have to figure that they need to actually be round and have the axle hole in the center before balance matters much, LOL.
:tellme:
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by gpraceman »

I just got off the phone with Randy Metz from Pinewood Extreme. They do have these new wheels and axles in hand.

Here's some tidbits on the new wheels:
+ Slightly smaller outer wheel diameter. ~0.1" less :?
+ Thinner tread thickness
+ Reduced outer hub diameter
+ Coned hub :thumbup:
+ No more mold mark on the wheel tread! :bigups: There are 3 injection points on the inside of the wheel, on the side wall (see photo below for 3 dots in a triangle pattern)
+ Reduced weight (2.6g) :thumbup:
+ These will only be in black until BSA reduces inventory on their colored wheels :(
+ BSA is not yet including them in the kits, but they are in the wheel and axle sets
+ BSA is currently shipping a mix of the new and old wheels/axles in those sets

Image

On the axles, they are still nails. The main difference is that they are about 1/8" shorter. There's still ridges on the shaft and burrs under the heads to remove. I'm rather disappointed with that news. :cry:
Randy Lisano
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by Stan Pope »

Good stuff, Randy! Thank you.

Any word on the bore diameter or axle diameter?
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

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Stan Pope wrote:Any word on the bore diameter or axle diameter?
Not on bore diameter. Randy M. mentioned that the new axles were slightly smaller in diameter. I'm also not sure how many they actually measured, so maybe that is attributable to manufacturing variation.

He did also mention that with the shorter axles they are a bit harder to chuck in their lathes. Not as much shaft to grab onto.
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

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Why is it it's always the Randy's that have the inside knowledge??

Keep it coming!!
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by gpraceman »

Pinewood Daddy wrote:Why is it it's always the Randy's that have the inside knowledge??
That's because there are a lot of us Randy's involved in this sport. :lol: If I want some inside scoop, I call Randy M. and Randy D.
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by Dad of 3 »

In my opinion this makes a rules nightmare. How can you disallow an "official" replacement wheel from the scout shop? Even though this gives that racer a distinct advantage. Since they don't come in the kit do I need to tell all the parents that if you want your son to have a competitive car get replacement wheels from the scout shop, oh and by the way make sure they give you the new ones? :?
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

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Dad of 3 wrote:In my opinion this makes a rules nightmare. How can you disallow an "official" replacement wheel from the scout shop? Even though this gives that racer a distinct advantage. Since they don't come in the kit do I need to tell all the parents that if you want your son to have a competitive car get replacement wheels from the scout shop, oh and by the way make sure they give you the new ones? :?
I agree. That will be a touchy subject, but how can anyone not allow them to be used? They are the new "official" BSA wheels.

The reduced outer wheel diameter is a bit of a liability, but I'm sure that is more than made up for by the 28% reduction in wheel weight. With the change to how they inject the plastic into the mold, these wheels might be a lot less out of round than the current design. Overall, the new wheels may very well pose a distinct advantage over the old ones.

It is rather surprising that BSA would not hold off on shipping these until they have flushed out their inventory of the current wheel design, but Randy M. indicates they have a mixed shipment of the new and old. Maybe the supply gurus at BSA really don't understand the potential impact of these changes. It will likely be a headache for local scout shops, as people try to only get the new wheels. I didn't think to ask Randy M., but I wonder if they have changed the packaging any so you can tell new from old. Also, any of the online suppliers with substantial on hand stock may want to dump it and try to get the new stock. With less prep work likely to be needed by the new wheels, I can't imagine that online suppliers could charge as much as they do for speed wheels.
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by Pinewood Daddy »

The big question is who will be the first to get some, check the dimensions, try them and give us a review???
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by gpraceman »

Another point to add to my last post, is that you could also be at a disadvantage getting the colored wheels, if BSA waits to flush out their rather large inventory of the colored wheels before those go out in the new design. It's also another possible problem for scout shops and online suppliers on their sales.
Pinewood Daddy wrote:The big question is who will be the first to get some, check the dimensions, try them and give us a review???
Randy M. indicated that some scout shops are already receiving the new wheel/axle sets, so people can check their local shop and see.
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by Stan Pope »

gpraceman wrote:He did also mention that with the shorter axles they are a bit harder to chuck in their lathes. Not as much shaft to grab onto.
I wonder why that was done? :thumbup: Bet they still chuck fine in a hand drill, though!
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by gpraceman »

Stan Pope wrote:I wonder why that was done? :thumbup: Bet they still chuck fine in a hand drill, though!
The only reason that I can think of for BSA to shorten the axles would be to save on material costs. There's going to be less axle shaft to be held by the wood, so we may see a bit of an increase in problems with cars that have loose axles.
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

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gpraceman wrote:
Dad of 3 wrote:In my opinion this makes a rules nightmare. How can you disallow an "official" replacement wheel from the scout shop? Even though this gives that racer a distinct advantage. Since they don't come in the kit do I need to tell all the parents that if you want your son to have a competitive car get replacement wheels from the scout shop, oh and by the way make sure they give you the new ones? :?
I agree. That will be a touchy subject, but how can anyone not allow them to be used? They are the new "official" BSA wheels.

....

It is rather surprising that BSA would not hold off on shipping these until they have flushed out their inventory of the current wheel design, but Randy M. indicates they have a mixed shipment of the new and old. Maybe the supply gurus at BSA really don't understand the potential impact of these changes. It will likely be a headache for local scout shops, as people try to only get the new wheels. I didn't think to ask Randy M., but I wonder if they have changed the packaging any so you can tell new from old. Also, any of the online suppliers with substantial on hand stock may want to dump it and try to get the new stock. With less prep work likely to be needed by the new wheels, I can't imagine that online suppliers could charge as much as they do for speed wheels.
In a stark departure from my normal excursuses (n.b. Randy--your new software does not properly recognize this fine word and insists that it is misspelled) involving the most fundamental of all sciences--physics--I must turn to Economics or The Dismal Science as Thomas Carlyle preferred to call it. There's a law (yes, Economists still pretend to have laws) that describes what will likely happen with the old wheels. This law parades around the town under the appellation of "Gresham's Law". The most oft quoted embodiment of this law is that "bad money drives out the good." The gist--if an authority declares two things are equivalent when they are clearly not, folks will try to get rid of the inferior item by exchanging it for the superior item and/or going out of their way to avoid possessing the inferior item.

Now, if BSA insists that the 2009 Wheel is "equivalent in all respects" to the 1991 wheel (wheel designation terminology borrowed from Doc Jobe, Doc--my apologies for dragging your fine name into an economics discussion) we all currently know and love, and, if the 2009 wheel does provide a substantial advantage in speed (which any reasonable economist trained in the fine art of Newtonian mechanics would conclude), and if BSA does not flush the 1991 wheels out of inventory, then BSA is about to have a boat-pile (a very large amount for non-economists) of 1991 wheels as soon as these facts are known by a reasonable population of PWD racers. You see, Gresham's law says that folks will find every excuse in the book (once again, very technical economist jargon) to exchange the 1991 wheels for the 2009 wheels and take advantage of the less well informed in our society or BSA's exchange policies. And, as noted above, no reasonable PWD racer would willingly pay full price for the 1991 wheels they find on the shelves of their local scout shop. Not exactly congruent will the spirit of Scouting, but, then again, we are talking about the application of a law from the dismal science.

Turtle racing, anyone? :scratching:
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Re: New BSA Wheel and Axle??

Post by Rod Turnbull »

gpraceman wrote:There's going to be less axle shaft to be held by the wood, so we may see a bit of an increase in problems with cars that have loose axles.
I'm sure the pin headed bean counters were not even remotely bright enough to consider their decision from a engineering point of view... all ways too busy looking at their accounting books through rose colored glasses while in collage... it would have done them some good to go down the hall to the engineering student's kegger and see how the real world works.

I say we start a campagne and take a photo of every car that the axle falls out of from now on... pose the child with the broken car in hand (tears would be good if they can muster some up)... send them all to BSA with a note that we hope the profits were worth the pain and sorrow they have caused the children.

Image
Frankly I didn't think they were long enough in the first place.
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