Cumulative time format

[doct1010]

We may explore this further ,it seems that most complaints come from the attending audience not understanding the format of points racing.We may need to spend some time during the next few meetings training chairmans on procedures then get this info to everyone well i advance of races.

Stang,
There is extensive debate in the archives on the pro's and con's of both methods, might be worth a read prior to your next meeting.
My first experience left a bad taste, however I think the way it was organized was atypical and could be improved. Had it included rank racing and awards, with advancement from ranks (based on time) to finals I would have felt much better. Only top three times in final was anti-climactic. I would suggest trying to avoid a time trial, which is what I experienced.
A lot depends on your budget, facility and time allottment. If your goal is to expeditiously find the fastest car in pack, a timed event will accomplish this; however if your goal is to provide maximum racing for the cubs and time spent is not a major consideration, a points system will accomplish that and more. It may also find the fastest car in pack.

[stang68]

DOCT,
Thanks,i will do the research.We have plenty of time to try the times race in a real race setting.I may have the committee build their own cars and have a race to test the procedure.May use this to try out new rules changes for next year.

[Kenny]

FWIW Doc, the format you experienced would definitely leave me feeling half-shaven.

To us it's not at all about efficiency or how quickly we can end the PWD event, it's supposed to be an experience that everyone can drink in.

But most of all, I cannot imagine depriving the Scouts of each rank the opportunity to see how they fare against their own classmates, and THEN perhaps against the entire Pack.

All I can say is YUK, it makes me appreciate our system even more.

K

[doct1010]

K,

DOUBLE YUK!

[doct1010]

Follow up to preceding.

I took it upon myself to write cub master and offer my perspective as an observer. I explained I had no vested interest in race, I was an invited guest and general spectator with several years experience as a derby chair. (I did mention I had a rooting interest in my buddies son.)

I offered suggestions on ways I thought might make event more interesting and exciting for boys and observers. Top of the list was rank racing and advancement to finals based on times taken from ranks. I suggested top three in each rank advance to final, 12 total or at the very least 8 considering it is a 4 lane track. My tone was cordial and complimentary of the event, I mention what gracious a host they were and how generous. (buffet gratis)

His response was short and to the point. Thanks but no thanks. This is the way we have always run the event (without complaints) and plan to continue. He asked if I would have felt differently had my buddies son made it to final. Small mind and tunnel vision, great combo. I don't plan on responding.

[gpraceman]

His response was short and to the point. Thanks but no thanks. This is the way we have always run the event (without complaints) and plan to continue. He asked if I would have felt differently had my buddies son made it to final. Small mind and tunnel vision, great combo. I don't plan on responding.

Sorry to hear about that response. Seems some people get too accustomed to "that's the way we've always done it" and don't want to consider making any changes.

[doct1010]

Yes Randy it is sad. They have all the bells and whistles required for a great event. Choice of venues, Four lane Best track with remote start and laser gate, Fast track timer, GPRM projected on a 12' X15' screen and very deep pockets.

I tried twisting my buddies arm a bit to get invloved with leadership and try to effect some changes. Thus far not interested. His interest has yet to reach obsession! But... his son is only a tiger so there is still time!

[FatSebastian]

His response was short and to the point. Thanks but no thanks. This is the way we have always run the event (without complaints) and plan to continue.

Doc, I admire your willingness to try. We can probably all relate to hearing that reasoning before. Regarding the earlier experience I shared in this topic, I tried to convince the Cubmaster to at least allow the boys to stage their own cars to make the event more interesting, since the actual racing was going to be minimal (one run down each of three lanes) and the racing format offered plenty of time for the boys to do the staging. The suggestion went up like a tungsten balloon, for the same reason.

[doct1010]

Thanks FS, you can relate to the rock and hard place!

I question the motivation of this packs leadership. Why bother with all the bells and whistles, stage the event and have it over in an hour with limited excitement and racing? They certainly have all the requisites for a more enjoyable event. I haven't a clue. Stans sig states it succinctly :"If it ain't for the boys it's for the birds."

[FatSebastian]

I question the motivation of this packs leadership.

Reasonably so. I'll add, if his motivation was anything like the Cubmaster that I just referenced, it was that he didn't want to be bothered with even thinking about implementing changes. Also, some folks are naturally skeptical of ideas that are not their own (the opposite mentality of most DT participants). Let's hope that you planted a seedling that might eventually grow more acceptable to them in time.

[Kenny]

His response was short and to the point. Thanks but no thanks. This is the way we have always run the event (without complaints) and plan to continue. He asked if I would have felt differently had my buddies son made it to final. Small mind and tunnel vision, great combo. I don't plan on responding.

Too bad...but kudos for trying Doc.

Time obviously isn't right for this leadership. I sure hope it's not a case of "just doing our time" or "we're not makin' waves" so we can "get through this." But, should this be just such a scenario...a leadership refresh might be just the ticket to open up the event a little for the little dudes.

K

[stang68]

Doc,
He can not use the "we have not had any complaints" line anymore.That a start
We do not get many complaints but we do get a lot of why did you do this or why did that happen ,from parents and visitors,we make sure everyone that has questions or comments get an invitation to our meetings.If they can make our PWD better we want to here it.Keep up the good work

[doct1010]

Doc,
We do not get many complaints but we do get a lot of why did you do this or why did that happen ,from parents and visitors ...

Thanks Stang. I've always felt, regardless of scheduling mehtod, the more transparent the better. Keep folks informed of exactly what's happening, less questions and headaches! Projected results, with updates of scoring goes a long way to ahieve that end. An explanation of scoring mehtod at outset also helps folks understand how cars will advance.

[quadad]

I haven't been on much lately, so pardon me for a little re-treading.

I was glad to at least see in a later post in this thread that it was an electric start gate. Cummulative timing without it is bad business !

Our Pack's format is actually like this, except we run all cars down each of four lanes twice, eight heats each, but there is no finals round. Adults handle the cars and use boxes to shuttle them between fore and aft. Kids will be using a TV remote to release the gate next year . We run 35-40 cars in 1 hour and about 20 minutes of pure racing. I had argued that we have gotten so "efficient" with this that you can hardly remember what you saw. We slowed it down a little this year, but not much.

Overall this format does work for our Pack. Every heat does count and your planning on lube, etc., does matter. There is a constant high pitched buzz and excitement in the scouts and their siblings the ENTIRE time. These parents don't want a four hour race. We have experienced the near total alternative (at another venue), up to three rounds with each one making the previous meaningless once you were in it. Either way you can win or lose somehow influenced by the format. At some point it quickly becomes more of an endurance race because if you have an accurate timer I don't think it matters which cars are in the adjacent lanes, just that you run an equal number of times in the same lanes. I am not knocking any of the previous opinions. The only "best" option is what is best for your Pack. Fortunately no one leaves our building complaining about the format. I think though that this is as much a result of the character of the leaders and the parents than anything else.