what's with the rules???

[Scubersteve]

I have no doubt that this has been covered somewhere before, but I couldn't find it (quickly). What is the reasoning behind some of the rules observed at a lot of these derbys? Specifically, the "4 wheels touching" and the "use the slots" rules? Why do they care about these things? As I see it everyone has the same opportunity. You can drill axle holes with a piece of CNC equipment or a hand drill. Why the micromanaging? I have never had to race under these rules, so I have never had anyone to ask. The rules for the pinewood club I started are about as simple as they come:

“STOCK” CLASS RULES
Cars must be constructed from official Awana Grand prix wood blocks. (preferably purchased from our own Awana) Supplied wheels and axles must be used. Add-ons such as stickers, cosmetic trim etc. are permitted. If you get a bad component, buy another kit. The proceeds go to support the Awana program.

Cars must not exceed 2.75” in width, 7” in length, 3” in height, and 5oz in weight.

Cars must have 3/8” or greater ground clearance to allow for guide rail.

Wheels must remain original width and profile. (flat tread)

Cars are to be gravity powered only. No starting devices permitted.

Bushings, bearings, washers and springs are not allowed.

Only dry lubricants are to be used to avoid fouling the track.

No part of the car may extend past the starting pin.

Wheels may not run on top of the guide strip. (must straddle)

“OPEN” CLASS RULES
Cars must be made of wood.

Must not exceed 2.75” in width, 7” in length, 3” in height, and 5 oz in weight.

Gravity powered only. No starting devices permitted.

Only dry lubricants are to be used to avoid fouling the track.

No part of the car may extend past the starting pin.

Wheels may not run on top of the guide strip. (must straddle)

“OUTLAW” CLASS RULES (powered?)
Cars must be made of wood.

Must not exceed 2.75” in width, 7” in length, 3” in height, and 10 oz in weight.

Only dry lubricants are to be used to avoid fouling the track.

No part of the car may extend past the starting pin.

Wheels may not run on top of the guide strip. (must straddle)

[Rukkian]

I agree that some of the rules that get passed along are archaic and serve no purpose. 4 on the floor can be very difficult for inexperienced builders, as you have to have good alignment to actually have all four down flat.

As far as your rules, why require dry lubes only? Also, you state supplied wheels and axels must be used, but then say you can replace them with another kit, that is contradictory.

I don't think there is a perfect set of rules, however, I feel that less micro managment of the rules allow more creativity.

[Scubersteve]

we have an old wooden track that actually belongs to my church, they feel better with dry lube. How is the other rule contradictory? Use official awana axles out of an official awana kit. I just made allowance for the fact that sometimes you get a junk wheel or axle. The point in the stock class is what can YOU do with a kit, not what can you BUY that someone else did. The open class is for that.

[Rukkian]

I apologize if I offended you, I was not trying to say there is anything wrong with your rules, just pointing out that almost every set of rules I have seen have some things that make me wonder what they were thinking.

From experience Graphite typically leaves much more behind to dirty the track. When properly applied, oil will not show at all, and will leave nothing on the track, but the key to any lube is that it needs to be applied correctly.

The contradictory part comes from the fact that you say you have to use those supplied, where it should read use from an official kit. If you have to use those supplied, then by definition, you cannot replace them.

[Scubersteve]

no offense taken, I see what you mean about the word "supplied"... legalese was never my strong suit. I think the statement about if you have a dud "buy another kit" probably clarifies the concept.

anyway, the whole 4 down, slots only thing never made any sense to me. If a competitor has a car that they did not buy that fits the dimensional and weight requirements, is safe(i.e. no razorblades attached) and doesn't interfere with the track or someone else's car. What more do they want? What is the spirit of pinewood racing? Little wooden gravity powered cars. As long as everyone starts with the same kit and uses the stuff from it, isn't the playing field level?

[Rukkian]

I fully agree, I like that I am in a district (and council) that all use the same rules (I even brought it down to the pack) and while the rules are wordy and spell alot out, still leave quite a bit open - no 4 on the floor, no mention of cant.

I think some of the rules have come from jealous parents who did not take the time to do some research, or ask for help and try to help their kid, then when their kid looses, they want somebody (anybody) to blame other than themselves - must be cheating to raise a wheel, better ban it!

[Scubersteve]

It just seems ridiculous that anyone would have that attitude. The info is out there/on here for free. People will go on WebMD and diagnose themselves, but won't do their homework on PWD??? I'll tell my doctor I have leprosy, but won't research rail riding.

[FatSebastian]

Why do they care about these things? [...] As long as everyone starts with the same kit and uses the stuff from it, isn't the playing field level?

Steve, my impression is that most local rules evolve from a set of base rules, such as the BSA "rules in the box" (I'm not sure of the equivalent for RITB for AWANA). As I see it, these local addenda are attempting to address something that was perceived as "unfair" by someone in charge at some point. By so doing, "unfair advantages" are thereby elevated officially to the level of "cheating".

Ideas about what is "unfair" and "level playing field" varies. Some believe that having access to costly equipment, techniques, or resources is unfair (lathing, for example). Some could argue that having extra "knowledge" or "information" also poses an unfair advantage. Not everybody knows that a raised wheel provides an advantage (and very often, even those that do know don't fully understand why). Of course, not everyone knows that placing weight further back can be advantageous either.

I would like to think that any speed technique that could be performed by an elementary-school-aged child should remain legal; certainly raising a wheel falls in that category and it is often done accidentally.

[Darin McGrew]

What is the reasoning behind some of the rules observed at a lot of these derbys? Specifically, the "4 wheels touching" and the "use the slots" rules? Why do they care about these things?

The rationale that I've heard for such rules is to keep the race "fair". Basically, the organizers prohibit techniques that they think give teams an "unfair" advantage.

You can argue whether the techniques really provide an unfair advantage, and you can argue whether the rules really make the race fair. I've done so more than once. But often such rules are steeped in tradition. Changing perception is hard.

FWIW, your rules are more restrictive than ours in some ways. For example, we don't restrict lubricants (as long as they don't foul the track), and we started providing Krytox 100 at our workshops a few years ago. Also, our maximum dimensions are based on not interfering with other cars, with our start gate, or with our finish gate, so we allow cars that wouldn't fit your maximum dimensions. In one case, we even allowed a car that extended over the adjacent lanes, but didn't interfere with any other cars because none of them were tall enough for the oversized car to hit them.

And yet, as open as our rules are, I'm aware of cases at our workshops where leaders incorrectly told people that certain techniques were illegal. (Generally, they were cases where the block was reduced to a thin slab, and a larger body was attached to it, which ironically is a technique that they had seen me use more than once.)

[Scubersteve]

I appreciate all the responses. I am not lobbying to change anyone's rules, nor promoting mine as being ideal for everyone else. I was just curious if there were solid reasons for some of the restrictive rules I see listed for other peoples races. Trying to see if I should have taken a different tack when I penned our club rules. Of course as there is no age limit in play, everyone just has to put on their big-boy underwear and put their best foot forward.

[rpcarpe]

To help mitigate the 'That's Unfair' syndrome we're trying these this year:
- More Workshops with PWD knowledgeable managers (okay, mostly me for now but others are catching on)
- Big Trophy is for the fastest TEAM! Den vs. Den... We have two dens, so 1/2 the boys go home as winners. Small trophy for individual winners.
- Winners explain their Best Secrets when they get their trophy.

Just in the last few weeks, I've heard boys asking each other questions like 'Did you polish your axles yet?' & 'What's your COG?'.

[Scubersteve]

- Winners explain their Best Secrets when they get their trophy.

Just in the last few weeks, I've heard boys asking each other questions like 'Did you polish your axles yet?' & 'What's your COG?'.

That's really cool.

[FatSebastian]

- Winners explain their Best Secrets when they get their trophy.

We do a variation on this in that finalists explain their speed tips after the regular heats and before proceeding on to the Grand Finals. At that point in time, final placements has yet to be determined. (In very smallish derbies in the past, we have allowed every racer to offer advice as time allowed.)

As mentioned here, part of the registration process is answering simple questionnaire asking what techniques the child used. This helps the child and parent think about what to say beforehand should they do well, and avoids embarrassing situations where the child doesn't appear to have any advise to offer or may forget some of the tips that he might otherwise share.

[3 Cub Dad]

In response to your original question about the origin of some of the "questionable" rules, since I've written a couple of sets of pack rules, district rules, and am currently on a district race committee with rules I didn't write, and don't agree with a couple of, I'll offer my two cents:

Four touching: I have NEVER understood any origin for this rule! As someone else mentioned, I see more unintentional 3 wheelers every year at the pack level than intentional ones, and they have to be fixed because of the district rules..... I guess someone thought 3 wheels were too fast and unfair to those without test tracks..... This one I don't agree with and am working to get changed.

Must use slots: The purpose behind this was/is to make it easier to inspect for illegal axles. Drilled holes make it more difficult to determine the legality of the axle and make it more difficult to look for the next item

Dry lubricants only: I know Darren is a big proponent of allowing oil. The arguement? "Properly" applied oil will not come off, harm the track, etc... Note my quotes around the term "properly". We are talking about kids, and a lot of uninformed parents. Yes, excess graphite also sheds and creates a mess. a HUGE, gets in the pores of your skin, ground into your clothes mess! However, that mess is usually pretty uniform and does not impede other cars. If it is so egregious that it could mess up another car, you see it at check in, or it is very obvious on the track and is quickly cleaned. A SINGLE drop of oil coming off a car somewhere on the track will not be noticed and could hugely impact the performance of a car hitting that drop. And not every subsequent car would hit that drop because it depends on the path down the track. We're checking in 60-150 cars, we don't have time to check for a single drop or inspect the track after every run for something that could affect someone else's car through no fault of their own. Easiest solution? No wet lubes allowed.

Agree or disagree, (note I don't agree with one of them either!), this is some of the "reasoning" behind those rules.

3 Cub Dad

[gpraceman]

Dry lubricants only: I know Darren is a big proponent of allowing oil. The arguement? "Properly" applied oil will not come off, harm the track, etc... Note my quotes around the term "properly". We are talking about kids, and a lot of uninformed parents. Yes, excess graphite also sheds and creates a mess. a HUGE, gets in the pores of your skin, ground into your clothes mess! However, that mess is usually pretty uniform and does not impede other cars. If it is so egregious that it could mess up another car, you see it at check in, or it is very obvious on the track and is quickly cleaned. A SINGLE drop of oil coming off a car somewhere on the track will not be noticed and could hugely impact the performance of a car hitting that drop. And not every subsequent car would hit that drop because it depends on the path down the track. We're checking in 60-150 cars, we don't have time to check for a single drop or inspect the track after every run for something that could affect someone else's car through no fault of their own. Easiest solution? No wet lubes allowed.

Well, you can just as easily inspect for over applied oil lube. If it is going to be a problem, it is going to be oozing out of the wheel bores. It will be quite noticeable. If the check-in judge sees anything looking wet on the outside of the wheels (or over applied graphite), they hand the car back to the racer and ask them to wipe off the excess. Of course, it helps to have some tissues handy at the check-in station for that purpose. This helps keep down the mess to the track, regardless of what type of lube is being used. It is a easy remedy and we haven't seen an issue with track fouling at our pack races or the district races with oils being allowed and this procedure in place.