Back up car??

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Noskills
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Back up car??

Post by Noskills »

Question to all,

Anyone here, if faced with some ambigious rules, create two cars; one car built for the liberal interpretation and another car built for the conservative interpretation?

I can't image anything worse than being sent any on race day.

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rpcarpe
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Re: Back up car??

Post by rpcarpe »

Yeah, I've seen people do that.
But it's usually better to contact someone and get the real interpretation instead of guessing, using precious time building 2x the cars needed.
My wife started a new support group... Widows of the Pinewood Derby.
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FatSebastian
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Re: Back up car??

Post by FatSebastian »

Noskills wrote:Anyone here, if faced with some ambigious rules, create two cars..?
Here's one related anecdote.

Our preference would be to get a clarification of the rules, and construct A & B cars according to the clarified rules.
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5kidsracing
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Re: Back up car??

Post by 5kidsracing »

rpcarpe wrote:Yeah, I've seen people do that.
But it's usually better to contact someone and get the real interpretation instead of guessing, using precious time building 2x the cars needed.

I agree with rpcarpe... get the scoop on what will be acceptable at check-in and build one good car that follows those guidelines. I would probably do it via email so you have something in writing at check-in.
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Re: Back up car??

Post by Derby Evolution »

While I agree with 5Kids about finding out the rules, I would suggest building more then one car anyways. I have seen many times a car get messed up along the way. This puts the builder back at square one. Since you are setting things up to make one car, it makes sense to make a second car (a back up) at the same time. This way if something goes wrong during the build you can always switch to the second car. I have seen great cars that are complete and get dropped causing it to break.
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drathbun
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Re: Back up car??

Post by drathbun »

We don't have a limit in our "outlaw" division so I often will make more than one car, one for "show" and one for "go" so to speak. But for the kids, they just get one. Never had a need for more than that, and we've never (in five years of my participation) seen anyone's car get so destroyed that it could not race anymore.

Great story linked from FatSebastian though.
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Re: Back up car??

Post by Darin McGrew »

Years ago, we had one kid build multiple cars, but that wasn't because of any ambiguity in the rules. He just rushed through building his car, and then wanted to build another (for his mother), and then another (for a younger sibling?). I don't think any of them did very well, but it's been a while, so I'm not certain.

On Derby Talk, I've read of father-son teams that built multiple cars, tested them at home, and then had the son enter the fastest one. The slower ones were entered in the parents/siblings races. But again, that had nothing to do with any ambiguity in the rules.

If there's an ambiguity in the rules, then I agree with the others who have recommended getting the ambiguity clarified.
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sporty
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Re: Back up car??

Post by sporty »

Nothing wrong with building more than one car.

never know what inspection will bring or a accident.

I foten recemmend talking with the people who do the inspection or will be doing it. However, Many times. I find they are not compfortable with being asked and refer you to the pack leader. Except for those who have been doing it awhile, the inspections.
Sometimes the inspectors dont know the rules and if they have kids racing, they might be bothered if you came up with something, that is in the rules or is allowed, that they did not think of.

Then again I have seen real loose inspections and real tight inspections. But would you feel guilty if a car you have got thru inspection and was maybe gotten past by lack of knowledge by a inspector, but no one else did to there cars ?

We always walked the line each year, but never crossed over that line. But I also asked and got many comments from inspectors for the pack and council.

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Re: Back up car??

Post by 5kidsracing »

Good points about Packs that have outlaw divisions... I would build 2 cars in those cases and just put the other car in the outlaw race. That is a great idea!
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Re: Back up car??

Post by FatSebastian »

sporty wrote:Sometimes the inspectors dont know the rules and if they have kids racing, they might be bothered if you came up with something...
Sporty raises some reasons as to why some people may be apprehensive about asking for rules clarification. Another reason is that merely raising questions might be perceived as you "trying to get away with something." (This can happen regardless of whether the inspector / official has a kid racing.) In such cases, an overly suspicious or impatient official might be inclined to give a negative or knee-jerk response to avoid a protracted discussion about where the lines are.

FWIW, we have found it productive to pose rules ambiguity like "Will race officials be checking or inspecting for such-and-such?" and "Have race officials ever disqualified a car for such-and-such?" This tends to force the official(s) to think about the ambiguity from the perspective of rules enforcement past and present, rather than whether your child's car will be a legal or illegal one.
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Re: Back up car??

Post by Noskills »

For me, our rules seems to indicate that you should use the slots. I interpreted this as you should put the wheels where the slots are normally positioned. It also said you need to be able to visualize the axels I used drilled holes and cut a groove in the bottle with a hacksaw so you could see the axels. Our pack inspector didn't blink. Yet our district news letter came out with a warning about reading the rules carefully concerning axel and wheels. So I e-mailed the district person mentioned in the newsletter. He seemed pretty adimate that slots and only slots were to be used. Luckily my son did not quality for districts but what a disappointment if he had. Yet as some of you above mention would the district inspector be just as fine as the pack inspector whereas the person I e-mailed just didn't want a prolonged chat on the rules.
Who knows. :thinking: :scratching:
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Re: Back up car??

Post by macd »

Our pack and district does not seem as competitive nor as serious as some described on this board. Our pack rules are identical with our district rules, and some of the rules are ambiguous to me. When I've emailed for clarification, I have only gotten vague replies. At check-in, it has usually been volunteer boy scouts manning the table... only checking for 7 inches and 5 ounces. This may change in the future, if someone starts taking advantage and someone else starts complaining.

In the meantime, I choose to interpret the rules conservatively and within the car-building abilities of my son. This year we built two cars. One practice car that we did each step on first; and the second real car where we did each step "right".

I did several practice axles, until I determined an 8 year old appropriate procedure to teach my son. Then he did the 4 we used.
I did several practice wheels, before I gave up and my son and I decided together to run wheels without mods.
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Re: Back up car??

Post by drathbun »

macd wrote:Our pack and district does not seem as competitive nor as serious as some described on this board.
Same here...
macd wrote:This year we built two cars. One practice car that we did each step on first; and the second real car where we did each step "right".
That sounds like a fantastic approach, and is one that Norm uses on the New Yankee Workshop. :) He always builds a prototype out of cheaper wood so he discovers and design issues before working with the real stuff. Not only does your boy get to learn how to use tools, but he's learning a mental approach to problem solving that will no doubt serve him well in the future. Thanks for sharing your story.
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Re: Back up car??

Post by resullivan »

Here is my problem about asking for clarification. Let say there is an ambiguous rule that could potentially make your car go faster depending on what it meant, so you ask for clarification. The clarification you receive says you must go with the slower method which you follow. Come race day you notice that they are not checking that rule at all, and several other cars, which did not get clarification, went the other way. What would you do in a situation like this? Are you going to standup and try and get a bunch of kids DQ'd and look like a total jerk in the process?

I agree with asking about what will be checked for during check-in, but I would not be specific. IMO, if you are able based on resources and the rules I would just have a backup car.
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Re: Back up car??

Post by FatSebastian »

resullivan wrote:Here is my problem about asking for clarification.
As dilemmas go, may we face none bigger!
resullivan wrote:Come race day you notice that they are not checking that rule at all, and several other cars, which did not get clarification, went the other way. What would you do in a situation like this?
What we would do (and have done successfully before) was already mentioned: ask in advance for a clarification of specific ambiguities in terms of how/if they were enforced in the past, and how they will be inspected for in the present (like this).

If one receives clarification in terms of inspection / enforcement past and present, and that information turns out to be inaccurate on race day, then one can raise concerns to the original clarifying official so that the inspectors and the race committee are all on the same page. Beyond that, I'm not sure that it is productive to worry about what others will or won't do; we can only do our best within the rules as we understand them. (Because this is a children's activity that is supposed to be for fun, the risk of tipping one's hand in advance of the race still seems better than the risk of being disqualified.)
resullivan wrote:I agree with asking about what will be checked for during check-in, but I would not be specific.
Fair enough! (Yet one might wonder if unspecific queries over unspecific rules might yield unspecific responses.)
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