Team Masco Lineup

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Masco
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Team Masco Lineup

Post by Masco »

This is my son's third PWD race and this year I was volunteered to run the race. So, I decided to add a sibling race and an adult race... Should be a lot of fun. Wanted to share progress with others that enjoy building these.

My Bear Scouts car (one coat of paint so far, hopefully it will look better once it has a few coats on it):
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His younger brothers car (I love this one b/c we made the fenders using balsa wood that we superglued like plywood, and then carved/sanded into the shape, I think I looks cool):
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And my car:
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The last two years we used tungsten weights and I get the benefit of using it, but I'm kind of sick of paying for them and I hate to destroy the old car to reuse them, so we got a bunch of fishing weights, I made a mold out of wood, and melted them down and poured them into the mold... Worked pretty good. On the last car I spend a lot of time hammering and shaping the lead to be part of the exterior of the car... It was labor intensive, and I will probably get lead poisoning but it was fun to work with.

One thing I am upset with are the axles. My son wants to use colored wheels, so we picked up the Revell colored wheels from a hobby shop. He and I spent a ton of time polishing the BSA kit axles. Unfortunately, I over filed them and now the diameter near the head is much smaller than the other end (the pointed end of the nail), so the shape is more conical than a cylinder... Lucky, we have our packs track set up in the basement so we ran some tests for fun to compare polished vs. unpolished (BSA kit) vs. Revell unpolished. There is very little difference between the BSA Kit Polished (conical shape we ended up with) vs. Unpolished and the Revell ones that came with the colored wheels blew the BSA polished out of the water. I think it was like 1.5 tenths of a second. So, I was planning on using the Revell ones, but just read the district rules and although you can use the Revell wheels, you must use the BSA kit axles.

IMO - this stinks b/c it basically provides a huge advantage to the dad's that have the skill and put in the effort to file down and polish the BSA axles. Where they to allow the Revell axles then scouts would have less work to do to be competitive and Dad's would be less invented to spend time on their son's cars.

Since I'm relatively new to PWD in general (only two years experience), is this a new issue for PWD? Is it possible that the delta between the BSA axles and the Revell axles isn't as significant as my limited testing produced?

Thanks for the feedback.
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Vitamin K
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Re: Team Masco Lineup

Post by Vitamin K »

Cars are looking good! I dig your younger son's fenders!

I've never really had a problem with polishing the BSA axles, personally. I always kind of liked the process of working it from something nasty to something smooth and shiny. One thing that I did discover was that you really do need to use a diamond grit file for the initial deburring. The first time, I used a thin file of serrated steel, and it was entirely too coarse. Took off too much material and chewed up the axles. When I switched to a diamond grit jewellers' file, my results were much better.

BTW, I hear you on the lead v. tungsten thing. Tungsten is just way too expensive for what you spend on a single car.
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Re: Team Masco Lineup

Post by FatSebastian »

Masco wrote:Is it possible that the delta between the BSA axles and the Revell axles isn't as significant as my limited testing produced?
Might factors like alignment or axle straightness have also contributed to the differences you observed?

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The Chinese-made Revell axles are well known for lacking the crimp marks that builders are eager to remove from the USA-made axles. Many builders make the mistake of spinning their nails against a file to remove the crimp marks. Unless one is trying to make a groove where the crimp marks are, the nail should be held motionless and the crimp marks filed away with light pressure.
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Vitamin K
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Re: Team Masco Lineup

Post by Vitamin K »

Huhn, well, count me in the "doing it wrong" camp. I guess I will try the other way next time I have to polish axles which..is pretty soon, since we're using BSA kits for my kids' Awana builds...
FatSebastian wrote:Many builders make the mistake of spinning their nails against a file to remove the crimp marks. Unless one is trying to make a groove where the crimp marks are, the nail should be held motionless and the crimp marks filed away with light pressure.
Masco
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Re: Team Masco Lineup

Post by Masco »

@fatsebastian - I'm surprised to hear that. But after the results I had, obviously my technique is way too aggressive. You can see the obvious "cone" shape I was talking about in my original post. I ran some tests on my extended wheel base car last night, and the Revell axles (polished with 1000, 1200 and 1500, and graphite), and COG is at about 0.8" (again this is extended so the wheel base is close to 7") the car had no wiggle and the two fastest runs were 2.286. Then did the same with the polished axles w/ graphite (pic below) and the car had the wiggles and ran about +0.1.

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Also, heard back from the District that the Revell axles are allowed to be used (the ones that come with the colored wheels).

We polished the Revell axles with no file and started with 1000 grit, then 1200 then 1500 and they work well. I have read a lot about going all the way up to 3000 grit.

Q: What's conventional wisdom suggest on how high of a grit to work up to, and how big a jump to make between grits (meaning is going from 1200 to 1500 ok, and is going from 1500 to pumice ok)?

Also, I ran some tests using the same car, axles and wheels but different types of polish I had lying around the house. I used a copper polish, silver polish and then NuFinish car polish (the stuff that is in the orange bottle). I found that the copper polish had the best results, but nothing worked as well as just graphite...

Q: Is there any finishing "polish" product that is best, and is the impact even worth the effort at the cub scout level?
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Re: Team Masco Lineup

Post by ngyoung »

but nothing worked as well as just graphite...
Regardless of polish you'd still want to use graphite. The biggest issue with polishing you addressed with filing the crimp marks. As for wet sanding, I start at 400 and go up to 12k grit. I use a pack of ultra fine waterproof sandpaper that is found at Hobby Lobby. sku# 852400. It is $8.99 but you can use their perpetual 40% off one item coupon. I would not recommend using pumice. If I remember correctly that equates to around 1800 grit. For my final step I use Brasso metal polish on a strip of leather. I still go fairly short with the low grits ~15sec for 400 and 600 and at the higher ones I give it a little extra time.

The step sizes that are in the pack I use are as follows:
400
600
1000
2000
4000
6000
12,000

Is the impact worth it at the scout level? Odds are unlikely but the cub scout motto is "Do Your Best" :bigups:
You never know if there is another father and son team going that extra mile until after you race.
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Re: Team Masco Lineup

Post by Dintlow »

Masco wrote:
IMO - this stinks b/c it basically provides a huge advantage to the dad's that have the skill and put in the effort to file down and polish the BSA axles. Where they to allow the Revell axles then scouts would have less work to do to be competitive and Dad's would be less invented to spend time on their son's cars.

Yes its an advantage to put effort into building these cars fast but its not an unfair advantage. The team that learns how and works hard should be fastest.

I'd say an unfair advantage would be having the pack's track set up in your basement for you to use. Are you inviting all the scouts to have equal time with the track?
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Re: Team Masco Lineup

Post by ngyoung »

If you have a local scout office that has the official colored wheels made in the USA you will want to use those. Both are deemed official BSA parts but the Revell version made in China are heavier. A lot of guys buy the Revell wheel packs just to get the axles and throw the wheels in the junk pile.
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Re: Team Masco Lineup

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Dintlow wrote:
I'd say an unfair advantage would be having the pack's track set up in your basement for you to use. Are you inviting all the scouts to have equal time with the track?
Yes...
Masco
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Re: Team Masco Lineup

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ngyoung wrote:If you have a local scout office that has the official colored wheels made in the USA you will want to use those. Both are deemed official BSA parts but the Revell version made in China are heavier. A lot of guys buy the Revell wheel packs just to get the axles and throw the wheels in the junk pile.
Are you saying that the colored wheels made in the USA are better than the colored wheels made in china? and that the axles made in china are better than the axles made in USA?
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Re: Team Masco Lineup

Post by ngyoung »

Yes. Have you started :pullhair: yet? Weight is one factor but reading comments from the guys that lathe their own wheels and they say the revell made in china versions are also more likely out of round. They have to do more work to get them round then the USA wheels. The only reason the revell axles are desired is to avoid the crimp marks and still stay within the rules.
Masco wrote:
ngyoung wrote:If you have a local scout office that has the official colored wheels made in the USA you will want to use those. Both are deemed official BSA parts but the Revell version made in China are heavier. A lot of guys buy the Revell wheel packs just to get the axles and throw the wheels in the junk pile.
Are you saying that the colored wheels made in the USA are better than the colored wheels made in china? and that the axles made in china are better than the axles made in USA?
Masco
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Re: Team Masco Lineup

Post by Masco »

ngyoung wrote:Yes. Have you started :pullhair: yet? Weight is one factor but reading comments from the guys that lathe their own wheels and they say the revell made in china versions are also more likely out of round. They have to do more work to get them round then the USA wheels. The only reason the revell axles are desired is to avoid the crimp marks and still stay within the rules.
Masco wrote:
Are you saying that the colored wheels made in the USA are better than the colored wheels made in china? and that the axles made in china are better than the axles made in USA?
Yes we have started, the first car in the pics is my sons. We filed and sanded the BSA axles and you can see a pic of the result... do not look good. So, we are going to have to do them over again, but have until Feb 21st to finish it up.

And you are right... I weighed the Revel (China) wheels and they are .4 oz total... the BSA (USA) ones weighed .35 total. Not a big difference, but it's something. I will say that when we experimented with the China vs. USA wheels (using the same axles) the China ones were faster. Probably need to buy a few more sets of USA wheels and see if we get a different result.
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