Pinewood Derby World Championship

General topics of interest to racers and race coordinators alike.
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gpraceman
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Pinewood Derby World Championship

Post by gpraceman »

I just talked to a guy on the phone today about another big Cub Scout Pinewood Derby race coming up. It is the 1st Annual Pinewood Derby World Championship, as they are billing it, to be held in New York Times Square on June 27th. It is promised to be a really large race, with some national media coverage.

https://www.bsa-gnyc.org/pwdchampionship

He is looking for local people to help out with the race. I did encourage him to post details for the race on the derby forums, so hopefully he will.
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Re: Pinewood Derby World Championship

Post by NYCracer »

And I'd be that guy! :bigups:

Hi All! I'm the Vice Chair of the Greater New York Councils Activities Committee (wow that's a lot of capital letters!) and we're planning a World Pinewood Derby to be held June 27th at Times Square. We've contacted all 200+ Councils via an email from our CEO to the rest with notification of the event but it's taking some time to filter down. Go to the website for more info, there's an FAQ/Rules document and links to register, there's NO FEE to come and race.

We've got FREE camping setup at Alpine Scout Camp http://alpinescoutcamp.org right outside the city and discounted room rates at the Marriott Marquis in Times Square. We're hosting championship races for all Council (or District if there's no Council race) winners and an exhibition track where any Scout can come and run his car. We'll have other events going on at the same time but not sure what they'll be yet.

So to recap, it's free to race, free to camp, a free 2015 World Pinewood Derby Patch, so all you need to do is get to NYC!

Feel free to contact me if you have questions.
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Re: Pinewood Derby World Championship

Post by birddog »

I think this rule will eliminate many racers from being able to race at this race:

"Axles must be installed in the pre-cut slots provided by the kit manufacturer. Axles must not be canted/bent."

All our cars were built with axle holes we drilled ourselves and we certainly bend one axle and cant two others.

That is the toughest part about trying to do a bigger race: getting all the rule sets similar. I've avoided trying to organize a council race for this very reason. Even across districts within our own council, the rules are not the same.

The Mid America race solves this problem by having a very "liberal" rule set.

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Last edited by birddog on Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pinewood Derby World Championship

Post by NYCracer »

Hi Birddog,

I got a call from a person just this morning mentioning the same issue of axle grooves. My fellow rules makers and I were a little baffled by the question since the 8 districts of New York have always been required to start with either the BSA's block of wood or a craft store kit - both of which have pre-drilled axle grooves.

I think we'd change the rule if we knew that it didn't provide a drastic competitive advantage, but not being a physics major...

I Googled the Mid-America race and found their rules, and I have Greg Dawes number. I'll give him a call to discuss.

Really appreciate the input, thanks!
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Re: Pinewood Derby World Championship

Post by gpraceman »

The main issue with axle grooves is that they aren't always cut straight. If they aren't then the racer is at a disadvantage. That is why our district allowed drilling axle holes. However, they did have a requirement that the end of the axle be visible to help ensure that BSA axles were being used. Some would drill viewing holes in the bottom of the car or make their weight pockets big enough so the tips would be visible.
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Re: Pinewood Derby World Championship

Post by Brian Clark »

Is there a open class, can kids mail there cars to the event if they can't make it live?
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Re: Pinewood Derby World Championship

Post by gpraceman »

From what I read, there is no proxy racing.
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Re: Pinewood Derby World Championship

Post by psycaz »

NYCracer,

Good luck with your event. Sounds like fun.

One question on the bent/canted axle rule.

How do you currently enforce this? It's been my experience that using those slots, it's almost impossible to insert axles straight. We've had parents crack the wood putting axles in or have them go in on an angle anyway.

Just wondering what you consider canted?
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Re: Pinewood Derby World Championship

Post by gpraceman »

Our district used to have a no bent/canted axle rule, but it was finally removed because there can be cases where a car can meet that rule at check-in but later get out of spec. That can happen if the axles are not firmly in the slots, due to rough stopping, or due to poor handling of the cars. We had a dad that was quite upset at one of the district races because one of the fastest cars had canted axles by the end of the race, but it passed a pretty thorough check-in inspection. That car, fortunately, was not disqualified, but the district re-evaluated that rule and threw it out for the next district race.

IMO, if an inexperienced builder just slaps a car together with minimal work and not much thought and then cannot pass inspection, then the rules need to re-evaluated. It is certainly harder to get the axles into the slot perfectly straight than it is to have some amount of cant to them. The rules should not make it harder for novice builders to make a compliant car.
Randy Lisano
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Re: Pinewood Derby World Championship

Post by psycaz »

Randy,

I've experienced the same thing. My sons second year in scouts, his best friend was forced to severely damaged their car as back then we had the no axle cant rule. Axle got bent after it was checked in but before the races started. The glue they had put on hardened that way. The car should have finished second, they ruined having to correct the cant.

I hate that rule. I've seen more ruined cars because of it, more scouts not race because if it.
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Re: Pinewood Derby World Championship

Post by rcmoeur »

Given that our council doesn't even have a council-level Derby (but we're working on that...), a "world championship" Derby is certainly ambitious. But as others have pointed out, differences in rules are going to leave a lot of boys left out. For example, I strongly encourage our boys to drill axle holes instead of using the slots for much greater durability, while drilling small holes for axle inspection. And so none of them can compete.

I still wish your event the best in the spirit of Scouting, and hope it is a success. And that way next year you can take another look at those axle rules. ;)
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Re: Pinewood Derby World Championship

Post by rcmoeur »

Here's a document we put together (complete with photos) to show how to drill axle tip inspection holes for cars with drilled axle holes:
http://www.richardcmoeur.com/scout/exposingaxletips.pdf
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Re: Pinewood Derby World Championship

Post by Stan Pope »

rcmoeur wrote:Here's a document we put together (complete with photos) to show how to drill axle tip inspection holes for cars with drilled axle holes:
http://www.richardcmoeur.com/scout/exposingaxletips.pdf
I like this addition to the rules. Well done!

Does your inspection procedure do anything to assure that the visible tip and the visible axle head are part of the same object?
Stan
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Re: Pinewood Derby World Championship

Post by Vitamin K »

Stan Pope wrote:
rcmoeur wrote:Here's a document we put together (complete with photos) to show how to drill axle tip inspection holes for cars with drilled axle holes:
http://www.richardcmoeur.com/scout/exposingaxletips.pdf
I like this addition to the rules. Well done!

Does your inspection procedure do anything to assure that the visible tip and the visible axle head are part of the same object?
I'm curious, do your District rules allow Revell axles to be used? Because those have a differently shaped tip than the BSA-made axles. If so, how would you distinguish a Revell axle from a machined axle?
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Re: Pinewood Derby World Championship

Post by ngyoung »

I am fine with rules limiting modifications to wheels and axles but for the body I think you really should let it be more open. As long as it meets the dimension rules for traveling down the track without interfering with other cars or the finish line gate they should be able to do what they want for design. If all the districts that are involved in this have the same rules it is probably best, for now, to stick to that. Personally I would try to encourage whoever oversees those rules each year to look at updating them. Being the 1st annual Pinewood Derby WORLD Championship implies to me that you would like to build this into something more then just a NY area event in the future. If so then evolving into a more open and modern rule set is something I would seriously consider, especially if you start accepting proxy racers.

GPR has posted the "EASY Pinewood Derby Car WINS using Science!!!" video the forum already. All the science being discussed in it is lost with a restrictive rule set. All the stuff prohibiting canting the axles also is really unnecessary. It is very difficult for a kid to install axles on a car perfectly flat. Most of the rules stated don't really even the playing field they just make it harder for the average scout to build their car.
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