What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

General cubmobile related topics.
Teeeman
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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by Teeeman » Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:00 pm

I have looked closely at approximating CMB costs… Sporty is right, $100 is not expensive… that is about as cheap as you will come out in the end with a fully equipped and safe car… paint might cost more even!!!


I emphasize ways to reduce costs by means of sponsorships and material donations… almost any neighborhood under construction will have huge box containers on-site for each house into which enough wood to build 20 CMBs is usually just waiting for you… but you must GET PERMISSION FIRST… this material is scrap for the house build and 99/100 times the folks don’t mind at all … however, you must BE CAREFUL as most of these boards and planks will have nails.


Safety: Our CMB races suffer from 2 things: no lane separators nor barriers (hail bails for example) and a rash of cars that steer and stop poorly. We also seem to be VERY lax in inspection.

I have tried to get the folks running it to allow me to participate and make the needed improvements but I think they are afraid I’ll go nuts with safety inspection and ¾ of the cars won’t run :(

Most CMBs are controllable with a bit of practice, one of my thoughts was to have all CMB participants run a practice course, then run the ramp from 1/3 height then 2/3 then full height.

But who has time for that eh?

But I’ve also watched a little guy flip his car before… luckily no injuries…


-Terry


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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by sporty » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:47 am

A different look at Cubmobile and AASBD.


If we look at on average how many states have AASBD races. This is not talking about the NDR races.

Now by going by the official AASBD website. We are able to find which towns and states hold races.

But it appears on average that three or four AASBD races are held in most states. Not all states hold a race.

Some states have more than four locations that hold a Official AASBD race.

There is no data base or information that I know of, of how many Cub scout packs through out the usa hold a Cubmobile race.

Either way, just looking at Illinois, Chicago,Mchenry, Rantoul, Quincy are the four cities that Hold a Official AASBD race.

I do not know if and how the AASBD try and gain more races in states.

As locations, depending on where you live can be a good travel distance from your home to have your child race in a Official AASBD race.


I know that, AASBD wants to bring more interest and ways to get into the sport. With looking at a younger division and lower cost for beginners into this sport.

In regards to the recent discussion on the Cubmobile.


If we look at the fact that most children locally in there hometown. Who have more cheaper and lower cost sports and activities that they get into.

Then look into the location and Accessibility of those activities.

We might just see that one of the reasons, less people are involved in Cubmobile race or AASBD race.

That a big factor is going to be location. Traveling distance !

Because most of us already know of the cost factors involved in either sport.

Unless you have a large sized vehicle to haul a Cubmobile or a Soap Box derby car.

Then transportation is also a factor in a family and child getting involved into the sport.

Now if we look, and asume that the Cub Scouts have alot of packs in the us. Perhaps even more Packs then the event holders for a Soap Box derby race.

So, we might asume the core net work is already in place and some what set up for a Cubmobile race.

However, a Local Pack decides to hold the event or not.


A AASBD event not already in place. Likely does not have a core network set up already.


Most local Cub Scouts have a magazine in place, where some information is provided in regards to a Cubmobile race.

Now aside from the costly AASBD magazine out there. The audience is much smaller. When doing this type of comparison.


Let look at merchandise. Although there is not much merchandise out there for Cubmobile races. The BSA/ Cub Scouts have a large customer base and Scout related products.

AASBD, seems to have a limited number of items they sell in regards to merchandise.

I also do not know how many AASBD events or Cubmobile events, Have a display of the others Racer ? and packet information.

Or how many local stores or malls put on display either a Cubmobile or Soap Box Derby car with information about the sport.


So I just wanted to get thinking about other factors aside from just cost. But locations and other aspects of these events that add into the overall awareness and increasing of the Participation into these activities.


When was the last time that AASBD had a AD in the Scout magazine or the local Magazines that go out to the local packs ?

Or vise versus, How often does BSA or Cub Scouts have a AD in A AASBD magazine or flyier.

I think it would be great if we could get some Input from the BSA or AASBD members on some of these other avenues to look at. That also relate to the overall increase in both sports.

Sincerely,

Sporty



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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by Smell of pine » Fri Apr 13, 2007 5:53 pm

I agree that if all parts are purchased new by a family, then $100 is a realistic price for a cubmobile. The nuts and bolts add up quick. I also believe it could be easy enough to spend more than $100. But, I also feel that a resourceful individual/family/pack could find ways to cut the cost. We had our local hardware store cut us a good deal on the wheels, and rope. The local Home Depot gave us a discount on parts, We got some nuts and bolts. A local fab shop gave us a good deal for our steel, which we used for the ramps and our axles. A salvage yard only asked for a donation for 50 seat belts. In our area, there is extensive construction going on, and the scrap lumber is plentiful.

If the decision is made to keep the local races and parts up to the packs, then maybe pool resources, and get sponsorship. If AASBD takes it all on them selves, then the $100 mark would be realistic. It's still much cheaper than a stock SBD car. Again, get sponsorship, do fund raisers.



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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by sporty » Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:27 pm

Thats great to be get discounts and deals.


Some times it easy and sometimes not so easy.

I know some Cub Scout packs, worry of sponsorship and donations and help. As they worry it might affect the Friends of Scouting.

I know they are very careful on some of those issues.

I don't know if BSA will want to be involved in this or not. I think that something the two sides would have to meet and talk on. To work out details.

I guess one of the questions I need answered is what are all the avenues that SBD might be looking at for this to become a reality.

Is SBD hoping that BSA, Will have a common set of rules ? How dependant are they on wanting to see BSA involved ?

Or are they looking at there own rules and races ? Are they even thinking of a new name for the Car and design ?

I think alot of us need some more info and direction from them. In order for us to proceed much farther in detailed discussions of this.

I certainly would not be insupport of a $25 entry fee.

How much more would be exspected from BSA and local Packs who hold CMB races ?

How much more are the SBD locals willing to exspand and have a longer race or Bigger venue ?

Is this somthing SBD will say to the local even race holders, that they now have to cold a CMB race also ?

SBD is like CMB events, alot of volunteers or Organizations holding the events. Like Kiwanis.

I mean, I think most of us agree that a 600 feet race is to much for a young child with the Basic Cubmobile in mind. Or speeds that relate to SBD races.

Are the local SBD races willing to set up the races that are with in the limits for the younger children and car design ?

I just wish I new where SBD thoughts were at ? where they are inclined to say yes and where they might be saying no at ? On these questions.

I am also still awaiting a response from BSA also. Where do they stand what do they think ? can there be a unity in the Cubmobile races between the SBD ?

Sorry if I sound a tad frustrated, like other who have spent alot of time and put alot of work into this and related area's.

Sometimes I feel I get put on the side from BSA in getting back with me and corresponding with me on rules and Safety issues and Consistent events that are the same.

I want BSA to Look at the Cubmobile, like they do the PWD racing.

It could be insurance reasons, it could be simply not as much of a money maker for them.

I wish I knew more and guesses less on some of the many questions and information that I have sought out for a year and a half now.

Sincerely,

Sporty



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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by Smell of pine » Fri Apr 13, 2007 9:52 pm

I as well would like to see the cubmobile accepted by the BSA like they do the PWD. But I'm also discouraged somewhat by the lack of interest. Even on this site, look at the traffic on this topic compared with PWD related topics. There's no comparison. I wish we could get many more view points, and more interest from others on this site.



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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by sporty » Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:59 am

Totally agree,

I see alot of viewers in the Cubmobile, not so many posts. But I have gotten alot more private e-mails this year from other packs. Asking for info and asking questions.

The PWD is much easier to set up and run compared to Cubmobile. So some of it might be that.

I think if BSA can be shown ways to sell and make money from it, they will gain a higher interest in it.

I also think it takes interest and more packs holding the event and speaking about it at council level and to the national office.

Sporty



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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by Teeeman » Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:15 am

Figured I'd build a PWD test track for under $40...


as usual, the plans of mice and men thing...

"no time" due to other distractions to order online most of the parts...

by that meaning plan ahead and figure out exactly what I need by "seeing" either the specs or the part itself...


the latter won out...


got to Lowe's... spend $75 for the $40 track...

still have some deniro to go...


:(



Given 3 weeks of 8 hours a day to search online I could build the track for $40.



:(





Conveninece costs.


Period.






If you have the time then you can make a CMB for at or under $100.


It is HARD to do.





-T


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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by Tim » Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:44 pm

I have a radical idea for Cubmobile competition that probably won't go over very well.

Don't make it a gravity-powered event.
Make it a kid-powered event.

Instead of a one car, one driver event, make it a timed relay over a flat course for a team of 4 or 6.
I'm envisioning two teams of four boys, and a two lane, multiple turn "road course".
Two boys push, one drives, and the fourth stays in the "pits/start/finish" to prepare for being the next driver.
On each lap except the last, there's a pit stop for the driver change, which is included in the overall time. The required seat belt has to be fastened before the car moves.
Each team gets a run in each lane, and the times are added together.

This makes it more of a one car per den event. As the number of people on the team increases, the car's performance becomes less important than teamwork. The cost of the car can be spread over more people. The pack could inherit cars over time, lowering the cost of participation even more. The same car could be used by both, say, a Webelos II team and a Tiger team, since there is unlikely to be a fair race between them, anyway.

I like the idea of multiple boys pushing because it emphasizes the value of teamwork, and makes the weight differences between the drivers less important. So it increases the minimum speeds of a team, and I think there's a bit of a "three legged race" effect, lowering the top speeds as well.

A Cubmobile that has limited steering for downhill is just about useless for pushing around in the back yard the other 364 days of the year. I have a half-acre, and with the recommended blocks, a 180 takes most of the back yard.

Downhill, the ability to brake is important. Pushing, with a couple of boys hanging on to the pushbar, the car isn't going to tip over, and most kids won't ram their friends into an obstacle at full speed.

What's needed, as with PD, is a more-or-less standard timing system so the races are perceived as fair.
Replacement garage-door safety beams could serve as the basis for that kind of system. At full retail, they might be a little pricey, but it probably wouldn't cost as much as a ramp. For a closed course, the same sensors would be used for both start and finish timing. A closed course also minimizes the wiring run needed. A two lane start/finish should store in less space than a PD track.

With a downhill race, you need an upper limit on the weight, requiring inspections. With a push race, it's essentially self policing: a heavy car is slow, a flimsy car will break. In a push race, neither is much of a safety problem.

So mostly the rules for the car would be: No propulsion, a push bar, a seat belt, and you have to have a car that will work on the timing system. This is just something on the front of the car at a standard height and minimum length that will interrupt the beam. Duct tape and cardboard would make something adequate. Though for that rule, it's not really the organizer's problem. If you want a reliable time, put the interrupter on the car. If you don't mind giving the competition an advantage, suit yourself.

Building a safe ramp, or finding a safe natural race area, can be difficult. Getting permission to use a corner of a parking lot is probably easier to organize.


Tim

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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by sporty » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:14 am

Tim,

Welcome to the board and thanks for the reply.

It is a interesting idea. Not sure how well it will take off. As we have many visitors to the forum.

Perhaps one might think on your idea.

Sincerely,

Sporty



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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by Smell of pine » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:45 am

Tim, don't take this the wrong way, but I don't like your idea. If there is only one car for a den, where is the father/son time in teaching your son to build the car?

How do you govern the fairness in matching "teams"? Stonger kids, weaker kids, taller, shorter, etc. I could see a kid or kids pushing this car around the track, on of them lloses his footing and does a face plant into the asphalt. Or the pushers ent up pushing the car sideways and the car rolls and has the pushers falling onto the car and driver.
A Cubmobile that has limited steering for downhill is just about useless for pushing around in the back yard the other 364 days of the year. I have a half-acre, and with the recommended blocks, a 180 takes most of the back yard.
Unscrew the steering blocks, and either move them out, or remove them. After the race, it's the parents responsibility anyway.


This idea also does not bode well with district or regional advancement.

As for the timer and ramps, the timer could be made cheap enough, or there is a vendor on this site that can fab up a system for a reasonable cost. The ramps depend on how long you want them to last, and how portable you want them to be. They will more than likely be more expensive than the timer. We got some scrap steel, and a discount on some new steel. I constructed our ramps, and spent some of my own money in the process. It was one of my contributions to the program.

We as a pack had to fork out some money to get the cubmobile program going, but our district (other packs), are interested in competing with us. We could rent out our ramps to other packs, or charge a fee to race with us on our ramps. We have a cake auction this Tuesday for a fund raiser.

"Build it and they will come"...

The success of a pack relies heavily on the involvement of the parents.

Again, sorry Tim, as a national solution I don't like your idea, for a local race, have at it.



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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by sporty » Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:50 pm

From Jim,

CEO of AASBD.




At this moment the cubmobile in its current structure is not something we want to incorporate into our program. However, with construction and design modifications we would be interested in pursuing this.

We would like to have the cubscouts involved in derby racing, and we should continue discussions on making this happen.

Thank you for your time.

Jim



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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by Teeeman » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:26 pm

He doesn’t go into any detail on what specifically is not approved of in current BSA style Cubmobile design?

I’d be very interested to learn what the things that could be modified to suit might be…

I would gander to say steering and braking and protection would top the list?

-Terry


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Re: What do you think ? rules / regs/ building

Post by sporty » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:12 pm

All he said was :

We really havent had enough time to devote to design modifications.


So I do not know what they are thinking or where if any issues they mean.

You said the same thing I was thinking.

The steering and brake.

I thought perhaps they want a shell or front safety bar on the front of the CMB.


I see no issue with CMB if they stay with in the speed and distance recommendations.

But, again, they are more than likely trying to run a soap box derby length run.

And that means more speed. But why, I honestly don't think that children at 5 years of age can do it safely !

Thats asking alot of a 5 year old. I am sure there our some out there that could. But not many.

They likely want a BSA / AASBD relationship with the Cubmobile to make things alot easier on the AASBD.

But I dont see that really happening. As we have to keep in mind, that AASBD is about racing.

A CMB event is only a small part of Cub Scouts and not the over all goal.

Yes as I have stated plenty of times. We know I would enjoy a district race. It sounds like if we want one.

The local packs meeting at round table would have to set one up. Trying to get local packs to have uniform rules for that to happen.

Thats even harder without round table, council wanting it. Since BSA, Cub Scout division has no real interest to persue any farther than safety issues.

Sincerely,

Sporty



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