Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Solenoid start gates make for consistent heat starts.
niveknerd
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Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by niveknerd »

Hello, I have been building a track, and I am using the Grand Prix Race Manager Software. It has a function to do a light tree like real drag racing, and use a solenoid to release the cars. My dad came up with an Idea that we wire a solenoid to each lane, and let the boys trigger them after the light turns green. I schetched a schematic of a circuit that would add a red light so we would know if the hit it too early. I need some advice on how to make the latching circuit for the red light, and maybe some way to block out the solenoid if they red light. If there is already someone that has did this just let me know.

Thanks
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by gpraceman »

While that would add some excitement to the race and get the kids more involved, it would be adding a lot of complexity. The more complex things are the more prone to have something go wrong. Eventually, you will be passing the torch to someone else, so it is also beneficial in that respect to not make things too complicated.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by Mr. Slick »

I agree that it would add lots of complexity but would be very fun.

If you use a logic level switch you should be able to use an something like an "exclusive nor" to cause the switch to either fire the red light or if the "master start" from the parallel port has been sent, to activate the solenoid. Basically the state of the "master start" would determine which circuit is triggered, the red light or the lane's solenoid.

If no one else chimes in withspecifics/corrections I would suggest checking out texasinstruments.com for details.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by Doug-in-the-woods »

am presently designing such a tarting gate / tree with a very simple circuit that if the driver opens the start gate before the gree light the red light comes on in their lane. Car still runs but is "red lighted"
the circuit I am designing is based on a quad D flip flop (74hc175) and couple of gate circuits. A 555 timer chip runs the circuit.
estimating to cost under $10 plus solinoids.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by SlartyBartFast »

niveknerd wrote:My dad came up with an Idea that we wire a solenoid to each lane, and let the boys trigger them after the light turns green.
Great minds think alike! :wink:

Been thinking along the same lines myself.

Personally, I've been leaning towards adapting the wiring and code used for the timer at http://derbytimer.com/.

Learning PIC programming seems to be easier than figuring out the required electronics. Plus, with the micro controller, you can start recording reaction times as well as finish times.

Without any pin or wiring modification, the inputs for the finish line can be used for the start signals. First time a lane sensor goes low, it's to start the race, second time, it's because the car crossed the finish line.

Indicating a false start can be accomplished by flashing the red lights on the starting tree and the finish line display.

I've also been wondering if the controller would be quick enough to have to closely spaced sensors at the finish to calculate final speed. Gates placed along the track could also give section times and speeds...
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by TAL »

Just curious with 1 question kinda off topic, what would be the penalty to the racer for red lighting?
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by SlartyBartFast »

TAL wrote:Just curious with 1 question kinda off topic, what would be the penalty to the racer for red lighting?
Well, I think that's down to the experience level/age of the racers.

You could be harsh: 1 false start = DQ.
Match track and field and swimming: 2 false starts = DQ.

or have the system launch the car with a penalty delay.

Lots of possibilities. Which is why I much prefer the micro controller approach. Much easier to program alternatives than hardwire them.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by John Shreffler »

I have recently created exactly this sytem for a customer interested in factoring reaction time into the equation. My start gate is split, and individually controlled, not by solenoids, but by pressing the tail of a steel latch. Each lane has its own magnetic switch to sense the start of each race. See http://www.newdirections.ws/images/Draggate.gif
I modified my light tree by putting the disqualification lights for each lane, and the custom logic board in the top cap. See http://www.newdirections.ws/images/Draglight.gif There are three red DQ lights for each lane, pointing uphill, downhill, and to each side. The cutomer puts the light through a hole in the track so it is centered over the lane. For the younger kids, the start gate is the normal type, but for the older kids, the gate is swapped out to provide true drag racing, and great for 9 years old through adults. I would be happy to assist anyone in developing the circuitry.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by NealOnWheels »

At first I thought this would be an exiting addition to racing but then after thinking about it some I now have concerns.

I am no expert on child development but from all my experience working with kids I know they develop at greatly different rates even amoung same age youth. Reaction time is one of many traits included in child development.

I can imagine some kids not doing very well no matter how good a car they build.

I did a quick internet search on reaction time in kids but did not find anything conclusive.

Consider a kid with a dissability that affects reaction time. What would you do in that situation?

Perhaps a system such as SlartyBartFast suggested would be good. Not only could it release the cars with a time penalty for a scratch but release the cars after a maximum amount of reaction time.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by SlartyBartFast »

I understand your concerns NealOnWheels, but...

It's a balance. And don't forget no matter how you slice it, this is COMPETITION!

Competition should be fair. But fair as in "equal opportunity" not fair as in "equal outcome".

Far too much of what is wrong with society and our children IMO is the confusion of those two approaches.

Perhaps I come across harsher than intentioned, but so be it.

Realistically though, my 5 year old currently plays "Spiderman and Friends" as well as other games on the Vtech game console. The hand-eye coordination required and speed is surprising.

Now, how many of the older kids are plugged into various handheld consoles?

I don't think developmental disadvantages in reaction time are something to worry about.

Or, do you beleive all sport should be abolished? After all, sport as practiced even by 8 year olds, is all about the advantages of advanced physical and mental development and the luck of genes.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by Doug-in-the-woods »

I could build my design where I can change the time between lights. Planning on a ,5 second tree but could add a second timer for say a faster tree.
As far as using a computer, The race on June 30 will be outdoors so the chance of the computer being unpluged is a very real concern. Computer gets unpluged = loss of data that is not saved unless on saves each race.

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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by Spawn »

John Shreffler wrote:I have recently created exactly this sytem for a customer interested in factoring reaction time into the equation. My start gate is split, and individually controlled, not by solenoids, but by pressing the tail of a steel latch. Each lane has its own magnetic switch to sense the start of each race. See http://www.newdirections.ws/images/Draggate.gif
I modified my light tree by putting the disqualification lights for each lane, and the custom logic board in the top cap. See http://www.newdirections.ws/images/Draglight.gif There are three red DQ lights for each lane, pointing uphill, downhill, and to each side. The cutomer puts the light through a hole in the track so it is centered over the lane. For the younger kids, the start gate is the normal type, but for the older kids, the gate is swapped out to provide true drag racing, and great for 9 years old through adults. I would be happy to assist anyone in developing the circuitry.
John, is this something that would still interface with race management software, such as GPRM, for timing purposes? I think that this would be an excellent way of getting the youth even more involved in the racing, not just sitting beside the track as they watch their cars fly by.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by Doug-in-the-woods »

I am the indivual that is building/ designing a pinewood derby "real deal" starting tree w/ solenoid gates for each lane.
Have a very simple electronic circuit that I designed over the past few weeks. Parts are to be ordered today as a circuit has evolved from several different circuits.
the start tree has a DQ red light per lane as well as three yellow lights per lane. If "driver starts car before gree light he is DQed.
no computer hook up as I fear the computer losing power if accidently unpluged = loss of data.
Upcoming race for June 30th is outdoors, expect 100+ cars.
Planning on having 4 timed runs. Adverage or best time. then build a "ladder" based on times. fastest time races slowest time.
NOTE this may sound brutal to small kids but this race is for kids age 5-85, stock and A. G. Modified(anything goes almost).
the starting gate has a feature to start both cars together with out "driver" input.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by John Shreffler »

used with derby software ... for timing purposes?
The Judge I shipped to this customer did not have computer capability, so I did not look at this aspect. There is only one timer, so the elapsed time of both cars could not be measured independently. By logically OR ing the separate magnetic switches, the timer would be started by the earliest car, and you would get an elapsed time for each. For timing only one car for design purposes, there is no problem.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by gpraceman »

Doug-in-the-woods wrote:Computer gets unpluged = loss of data that is not saved unless on saves each race.
That depends on the software that you are using. If that part of the software was designed well enough, it should save results after each heat. If not, you do stand the potential of losing data. I remember one year my youngest son stepping on the switch to the power stip for the computer. No data was lost, but it sure seemed forever for the computer to boot back up.
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