Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Solenoid start gates make for consistent heat starts.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by Spawn »

John Shreffler wrote:The Judge I shipped to this customer did not have computer capability, so I did not look at this aspect. There is only one timer, so the elapsed time of both cars could not be measured independently. By logically OR ing the separate magnetic switches, the timer would be started by the earliest car, and you would get an elapsed time for each. For timing only one car for design purposes, there is no problem.
John, I was imagining the timing to be along the lines of an actual drag race, where the timing would start as soon as the green light went, and then each car crossing the finish line would provide it's elapsed time. Of course, this isn't really too different from simply triggering the start of the timing off of the gate opening for all cars on a single gate. I guess it kind of comes around full circle as to what you'd want to accomplish.

I'm just trying to envision the car owners being the one to start their own car, so that they become more involved in the race, but as others have mentioned, the biggest factor is how to deal with someone who would release their vehicle before the green light. Would it make more sense to simply DQ them as in a real drag race, or should they incur a small time penalty (.25seconds, .50 seconds, etc.)?
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by John Shreffler »

Using the Green light from the tree would work, and it actually sounds like the best way.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by gpraceman »

Spawn wrote:I'm just trying to envision the car owners being the one to start their own car, so that they become more involved in the race, but as others have mentioned, the biggest factor is how to deal with someone who would release their vehicle before the green light. Would it make more sense to simply DQ them as in a real drag race, or should they incur a small time penalty (.25seconds, .50 seconds, etc.)?
I don't like the DQ idea nor imposing a time penalty after the fact. I'd rather see it that the gate will not release at all before the green. If a racer jumps the gun, they will then have to repress the trigger button. That will essentialy serve as their time penalty. Other racers that timed the button press better will already have their cars heading down the track. Since some may want to press the button a whole bunch of times, you could add a small delay after each button press before the button is then reenabled.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by SlartyBartFast »

gpraceman wrote:I don't like the DQ idea nor imposing a time penalty after the fact.
Why not? If you're going to up the ante for the competition, DQ is the way to go. Perhaps not as brutal as drag racing (one try) though.
But, I'd be partial to releasing false start cars a tenth of second after the LAST car to legally start.
If the racers aren't mature enough to accept this part of the competition, have them run in a lower class that uses the classic start of everyone launched simultaneously.
gpraceman wrote:I'd rather see it that the gate will not release at all before the green. If a racer jumps the gun, they will then have to repress the trigger button. That will essentialy serve as their time penalty. Other cars that timed the button press better will already be heading down the track.
So, you have to have a one-shot circuit so that only new presses of the button launch the car.
Then, you'll simply have all racers pounding the buttons as quickly as possible just before the lights change.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by gpraceman »

SlartyBartFast wrote:But, I'd be partial to releasing false start cars a tenth of second after the LAST car to legally start.
SlartyBartFast wrote:Then, you'll simply have all racers pounding the buttons as quickly as possible just before the lights change.
Maybe I tacked my last statement on while you were drafting your post. I can see adding in a delay for the button pounders, maybe even a tenth of a sec, before the button is then reenabled.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by SlartyBartFast »

gpraceman wrote:Maybe I tacked my last statement on while you were drafting your post. I can see adding in a delay for the button pounders, maybe even a tenth of a sec, before the button is then reenabled.
IMO, very difficult to implement and much more damaging to racer's esteem, times, and the equipment.

How do you indicate a button is re-enabled? What to do when a button is pounded repeatedly after the initial false start? How to stop button pounding even when the start was good?

A racer that false starts but doesn't pound, how do you show them to press again?

Even if you can implement locking out the button, how do you inspire confidence in equipment that on the face of it seems to be highly unreliable. In the eyes of the racers, it would be difficult to tell lockout from broken.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by gpraceman »

SlartyBartFast wrote:How do you indicate a button is re-enabled?
...
In the eyes of the racers, it would be difficult to tell lockout from broken.
You don't really need to indicate that it is reenabled. You would need to explain to the racers that there is a button lockout if they trigger before the green, with a short delay before the button is reenabled. That explanation should stop most button pounders.

Anyways, after the green light there is no need to add a delay. Any button disabled state would be pre-green, so I think it would be easy enough to tell that the button is working or not. When building the circuit, I think it would be good anyways to have an indicator LED for each button that lights up when the button is pressed. Then it is easy to tell that the button itself works. Any button disabling is really the firmware ignoring the button state for a particular button until any penalty delay has elapsed, so it is really just adding complexity to the firmware.
SlartyBartFast wrote:IMO, very difficult to implement and much more damaging to racer's esteem, times, and the equipment.
I think the start penalty is far less damaging to a racer's self-esteem than a DQ would be. Button pounding would not be of any benefit, so I don't really see the equipment getting damaged.

Implementation on the firmware side may be a bit more difficult, but it seems better to me than a DQ. It also seems better than just releasing the car and then tacking on a penalty time afterwards, as the "true" finish order (with penalty time added) may not be the same as the one people just witnessed visually.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by Spawn »

This topic is definitely a political one which I don't think would ever completely come to a close. There will always be two sides (or more) to the issue, those who do not want to DQ, and those who do.

Personally, I'm not entirely sure which side I'm on. I see the benefits of both sides. I do think overall that the concept of having the racers start their own cars is an excellent one, as it brings in much more of the enjoyment and excitement of racing, however, you don't want to start to detract from that by imposing too much restriction or chances for a racer to DQ themselves completely out of a rally (imagining a child who happens to press just a touch too early on his first race, and then starts getting anxious for the remaining races that he might not even get a time at all!)

I guess it really comes down to what the group and more importantly, the racers, want to do.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

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gpraceman wrote:That explanation should stop most button pounders.
Absolutely not. If you were locked out, the best way to get the fastest time possible after would be to hit the button as fast as possible.
Infact, everyone would HAVE to. Otherwise, if you just pressed the button once, by the time you realised your car didn't launch, all the others would be well down the track.
For fairness to the person false starting you MUST clearly indicate to them that they did. Depending on them to launch after a false start and all others have left would be an ENORMOUS penalty.
So either:
- Immediate DQ. All cars run. DQ is indicated. (perhaps rerun in another heat) Just like real drag racing.
- Indicate false start and stop heat. Give limited number of tries until reverting to above. (just like running or swimming races.)
- Launch false start cars after last legal car (perhaps adjust for amount of false start).
Spawn wrote:imagining a child who happens to press just a touch too early on his first race, and then starts getting anxious for the remaining races that he might not even get a time at all!
Different levels of pressure/risk/reward for different levels of experience.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by gpraceman »

SlartyBartFast wrote:
gpraceman wrote:That explanation should stop most button pounders.
Absolutely not. If you were locked out, the best way to get the fastest time possible after would be to hit the button as fast as possible.
Infact, everyone would HAVE to. Otherwise, if you just pressed the button once, by the time you realised your car didn't launch, all the others would be well down the track.
And each time they press the button before the green, then the delay resets. I think they will quickly learn that button pounding does not help them.

Of course, you are free to implement it how you want. I just think that a DQ is too brutal for the kids and that just letting the cars go early and then tacking on a time penalty to their run time leads to other problems. If you are taking the amount of time that they pressed early and simply using that to delay the opening of their gate after the green, then that may work out. Maybe that is what you were getting at. I don't know that it will necessarily prevent button pounders. Anyways, a button should be able to take some abuse.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by SlartyBartFast »

gpraceman wrote:If you are taking the amount of time that they pressed early and simply using that to delay the opening of their gate after the green, then that may work out. Maybe that is what you were getting at.
That's exactly what I'm getting at. 8)
But, either way, whether DQ or delayed release, I'm leaning towards the heat being stopped the racer at fault getting told and the lights starting again for the higher experience racers.
What ever happens, I'm going to put effort into making the whole mess configurable.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by Spawn »

The idea of delaying the release by the amount of time ahead of the green that they pressed the button sounds like a fair way of dealing with a racer who jumpstarts. Of course, this could end up being a fairly substantial delay, but I'm not sure if it could be programmed into things.

I'm picturing that each racer has a button to release their gate when the green light goes off. If a racer hits their button before the green light, the system somehow calculates how much time was left before the green was to go off, and then goes green and adds that amount of time to release the car of the person who pressed their button too soon. I would think you would want to leave it as a single press button, so they've already pressed, but are then locked out until the green light goes, the system adds their time to the opening of the gate, and then the gate automatically releases the car. Something like this may end up actually being more difficult to try and program in.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

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Spawn wrote:Something like this may end up actually being more difficult to try and program in.
Speaking as a programmer, I don't think it would be that difficult at all.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by Doug-in-the-woods »

The circuit I have designed just for the electronics is just under $24 including ic sockets. This also includes an order of finish circuit. We have a finish line unit but it has many false finishes (it is one we purchased when we bought our Beta Craft track through the scout shop)
The lights are xmas mini lights (4 or ?) in parellel = cheap
the solenoids = $12 each
a switch will be wired so both gates can be droped together or seperatly.
The adults will have independent gates. If a driver starts his car before the green then a red light comes on.
start buttons will be at finish line.
ALL racers will be run in both lanes per heat (2 times down track = 1 heat)
win twice = advance to next round
win once = best time adverage advances to next round
ordered more track today (existing track is 23 feet. ordered 23 more feet. Beta Craft is having a summer sale)
by having two runs per heat will/should cancel out a slow gate.
June 30th is getting here toooo fast.
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Re: Adding Reaction Time & Red Light to Start Gate

Post by SlartyBartFast »

gpraceman wrote:Speaking as a programmer, I don't think it would be that difficult at all.
I agree with that. Just a couple of variables and delays. 8)
It's the hardware limitations that I'm uncomfortable with.

At this point in time, my holdup is that I've never actually worked with PIC microcontrollers.

I have read through the program for the http://derbytimer.com/ timer and have noted what I think would be the required changes to both code and hardware.

Now I just have to find some time to get the equipment together and to experiment.

The timer already has inputs for each lane, can use the same inputs as the finish line*, but lacks the outputs.

First trigger is interpreted as the launch button, second as the finish.

I've asked on the forums over there if the timer controller is quick enough to time triggers from lines a 1/4@ apart so that final speed, and possibly various intermediate speeds, might be added to the calculated data.
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