Electronic FinishLines for outdoor use

Commercial timing systems
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terryep
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Electronic FinishLines for outdoor use

Post by terryep »

Has anyone had experience running races outdoors or indoors during the day in a room with lots of windows? What sort of premium if any would make it worth while to buy a FinishLine that could reliably operate in these conditions?

Our pack races are held indoors at night and our district races are held during the day but in a windowless gym so it's not a problem. A couple "challenge" races are held in a mall with lots of windows so it's a worry there.

Terry
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Re: Electronic FinishLines for outdoor use

Post by MaxV »

The Judge finish line:
http://www.newdirections.ws

can be equipped with Sunlight-compatible sensors for $39 plus $6 per lane.

See:
http://www.newdirections.ws/options.htm#sunlight
for a description
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Re: Electronic FinishLines for outdoor use

Post by RMoose »

Here are my observations on racing in daylight, perhaps they will be helpful:
During setup for last year's Association RA race, we set up the track in our gym using a Newbold Products timer. This timer uses a lightbulb as the light source. We set the track up Friday night and everything worked fine. The next day during the race, we could not get the timer to register when the cars crossed the finish line. We finally determined the problem was the side door of the gym nearest the end of the track. It was a clear glass door and let in sunlight horizontally to the timer. We ended up running the race and "eyeballing" the finish line to determine the winners.

This year our State RA race was held outdoors. The three tracks used were set up on a covered basketball court. The roof had a wide overhang, but no walls. It was a partly sunny day with racing from 10:00AM until 4:00PM. The tracks were set up with Microwizard timers, which I believe use infrared sensors. The timers seemed to work OK under these conditions and showed times for the cars. However, I observed two races in which the car that crossed the finish line first recorded the slower time! One boy was particularly upset when he "lost" the race, as it was obvious to everyone that his car crossed the line first. I talked to his father about his car design. The front end was straight, with no point, and the underside was painted black. His was a preliminary race and they did not rerun it. Later during the championship round a similar situation arose and that race was rerun. I did not get to observe all the races that day, so I have no idea how often this happened.

My conclusions:

1) If at all possible, I would not run a race outdoors, or during daylight hours where outside light can reach the track.
2) If racing outdoors can't be avoided, The Judge timer with daylight option would probably be the best solution.
3) If that was not an option, I would try an infrared timer over one using a regular light bulb as the light source.
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Re: Electronic FinishLines for outdoor use

Post by gpraceman »

RMoose wrote:3) If that was not an option, I would try an infrared timer over one using a regular light bulb as the light source.
The sun is a great IR source, so even having an IR system may not help.

If you have to run outdoors or indoors where there is a lot of sunlight coming in, it would be very important to cut the glare by:
  1. Providing as much shade as possible on the finish line
  2. Making sure that the sensors are recessed into the track (preferably with the inside of the "tunnels" painted black)
  3. Having about a 2" black line painted across the finish, with the sensors in the middle of the line.
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Re: Electronic FinishLines for outdoor use

Post by Stan Pope »

RMoose wrote: However, I observed two races in which the car that crossed the finish line first recorded the slower time! One boy was particularly upset when he "lost" the race, as it was obvious to everyone that his car crossed the line first.
Are you saying that the race officials allowed the obviously incorrect electronic result to stand as final?
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Re: Electronic FinishLines for outdoor use

Post by terryep »

Thanks for your observations Rmoose. I built an IR FinishLine for my son's pack. Some builders recommend painting the track black under the IR sensor. With IR systems the LEDs are usually in the track pointing upward. The sensor looks downward. Painting the underside of your car really has little effect. What you really want to do is paint the top black.

If there were stray IR and a cub's car were built at a certain angle and with IR reflective paint it could be virtually invisible to the sensor! There should always be two judges paying close attention to the cars to overrule the FinishLine should there be a malfunction. Especially in timed elimination races run during the day!

I figure it would cost $3.00 per lane to add the electronics needed to prevent this problem.

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Re: Electronic FinishLines for outdoor use

Post by terryep »

I would add that a simple "pencil test" is called for in iffy situations. Take a pencil and swing it quickly through each lane to make sure it registers. If it doesn't fix it or turn it off!

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Re: Electronic FinishLines for outdoor use

Post by Stan Pope »

If I were purchasing, sunlight immunity would be a major plus. If the prices are not greatly different and there were no "break" issues, the promise of immunity would be high on my list of "deciders." Race organizers have enough to worry about without worrying about whether the sun is shining. :)

We have had indoor district races affected, and that is one of the reasons that I continue to insist on three finish line judges. (1 electronic, 2 human, majority rule when a unique heat winner is necessary.)

BTW ... We tried honoring each judges' choice during district racing this year, but I've no feedback yet on whether the issue even arose. Conceptually, until a decision must be made (majority rule), we would record each judge's selection as the winner. If there were a dozen or so occurrences, they might have added a round of racing ... not a bad thing. :)
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Re: Electronic FinishLines for outdoor use

Post by gpraceman »

terryep wrote:Some builders recommend painting the track black under the IR sensor. With IR systems the LEDs are usually in the track pointing upward. The sensor looks downward.
The systems that I am familiar with all have the sensors mounted in the track. To me this would seem to provide the best way to detect the car breaking the beam (the closer the car to the sensor, the stronger the "shadow"). If the sensors are above the track, it would be easier for ambient light to blind the sensor so it doesn't sense the car.

The black line across the finish line would be of best benefit with sensors in the track. This would keep light from possibly bouncing around and getting to the sensor. This may sound a bit unlikely, but there is at least one timer manufacturer that has mentioned a glare issue with yellow painted lanes (common with the Red-Green-Blue-Yellow Awana colors), so there may be something to it.
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Re: Electronic FinishLines for outdoor use

Post by terryep »

gpraceman wrote:
terryep wrote:Some builders recommend painting the track black under the IR sensor. With IR systems the LEDs are usually in the track pointing upward. The sensor looks downward.
The systems that I am familiar with all have the sensors mounted in the track. To me this would seem to provide the best way to detect the car breaking the beam (the closer the car to the sensor, the stronger the "shadow"). If the sensors are above the track, it would be easier for ambient light to blind the sensor so it doesn't sense the car.

The black line across the finish line would be of best benefit with sensors in the track. This would keep light from possibly bouncing around and getting to the sensor. This may sound a bit unlikely, but there is at least one timer manufacturer that has mentioned a glare issue with yellow painted lanes (common with the Red-Green-Blue-Yellow Awana colors), so there may be something to it.
Interesting... My sensor looks through an aperature at what I assume to be a point souce (the LED) I check it out by slowly moving a card over the LED to see when the sensor detects it. Usually it's right at 1/2 LED diameter. Pencil test has never failed me unless there was sunlight nearby. If a car had a raised nose or worse, a pointed nose a sensor in the track would be even more sensitive to stray IR from above or the side!

Terry

PS I just checked the link MaxV has above and the Judge illuminates from below.
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Re: Electronic FinishLines for outdoor use

Post by sigurd »

Our group recently purchased "The Judge" with the sunlight option and had our first race with it yesterday, outdoors in sunny Southern California.

It worked flawlessly during the entire race, although we did keep it under an awning to reduce IR pollution.

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Re: Electronic FinishLines for outdoor use

Post by RMoose »

gpraceman wrote:
RMoose wrote:3) If that was not an option, I would try an infrared timer over one using a regular light bulb as the light source.
The sun is a great IR source, so even having an IR system may not help.
A very good point! Actually, I was surprised at how well the timers worked, given that there must have been a lot of infrared radiation bouncing around. The basketball court was covered, and the roof did have a wide overhang, but given the results of our association race the previous year when a glass door rendered our timer inoperable, I was expecting far worse.
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Re: Electronic FinishLines for outdoor use

Post by RMoose »

Stan Pope wrote:
RMoose wrote: However, I observed two races in which the car that crossed the finish line first recorded the slower time! One boy was particularly upset when he "lost" the race, as it was obvious to everyone that his car crossed the line first.
Are you saying that the race officials allowed the obviously incorrect electronic result to stand as final?
Yes, in the preliminary race the car with the fastest time per the timer was advanced. This did not happen in the championship round however, the officials caught the malfunction in that race.

To be fair to the officials, I do not think they knew there was a problem. The event coordinator was in the middle of the court making sure the boys were called to the correct track. All three tracks were in use running the preliminary heats. Most of the race officials were at the starting gates making sure the boys staged their cars correctly. This race was fairly close, the margin at the finish was apx. 1/2 to 1 inch at most. I don't think they could spot that margin from where they were standing. There was only one finish line judge and he was actually behind the timer, in position to make sure the car stoppers worked and the cars were not damaged. I'm not sure if he could actually tell the finish order. I was sitting next to the boy's father and even though we both felt his son had won, he did not want to make an issue out of it.

During the championship round only one track was in use, and everyone's attention was on it. I think that is why that race was rerun.
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Re: Electronic FinishLines for outdoor use

Post by Stan Pope »

Hopefully, they have learned from the experience and, in future years, will organize better.

None-the-less, I wouldn't trust the times coming off those tracks ... even when the finish order and the times bear consistent relationships.

Have they taken the problem back to the manufacturer?
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Re: Electronic FinishLines for outdoor use

Post by RMoose »

Stan,

I'm not sure it really is a manufacturing problem. I don't think any of the manufacturers using Infrared sensors recommend using them in a high IR environment, such as outdoors.

As to the organization of the event. This was the first truely state-wide race the NC Royal Ambassadors have ever had. In past years there were three regional events, eastern, central, and western. This was a whole new experience for those in charge. Also, for them, the race is not the main thing. Every race participant is required to bring a missions project showing some missions-related activity they have done, either individually or as part of their RA chapter. This is the main focus for the state RA director who has overall authority for state RA events. These projects are judged and awarded trophies just as the race winners are. Perhaps not too surprisingly, the missions project part of the event went off without a hitch!

By the way, the state RA director has asked for comments/suggestions for next year's race from those in attendance. I have already e-mailed him with my thoughts. I do expect next year's race to be better organized.
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