Inspection - Lubricant limitations

[TurtlePowered]

My group seems set on limiting lubricants to "dry graphite or 'the white stuff' that BSA sells". Track owners are the most effective lobby for this limitation ... without them, it all falls apart!

Anyone know how to inspect for other specific lubricants that don't fit the limits and would give an advantage over graphite?

Things I've considered:
1. Affidavit by Cub Scout and Assistant.
2. Smell test ... not sure what to smell for, though.
3. Shake test (some graphite better shake out!)

Would a PH test help filter out WD-40?

[Darin McGrew]

This may seem extreme but when you here the boys saying "Did you see how cool my Dad's car is this year" I just looses something.

I second DGK's recommendation for an Adult/All-Comers division. It gives the dads who want to build a derby car themselves a sanctioned outlet, which helps them leave their kids' cars alone. And it provides a great way to demonstrate techniques without doing the job for the kid: dad demonstrates the technique on his own car, then the kid does what he was just shown how to do.

[MathGuy]

Regarding an effective why of sabotaging the spray on "wet" lubes. Our pack/council has rules saying something to the effect that the lube needs to be a dry, non permament lube. (vague though)

Our pack applies Graphite to all cars after inspection. The reason for this has been that many parents and kids don't know enough to even apply graphite. Most do. So this generally increases the competitiveness of the entire pack, and keeps parties from being upset at themselves for not applying any lube to their car.

"If you combine Graphite to "wet" lubes such as silicon, the car will be WORST than any the use of either individually. (I forget where I read this.) Thus applying graphite to all cars will sabotage the "Wet" lube guys. "

I heard last year, (or the year before) one of our inspectors saying that he had a dad say "not" to apply graphite to his sons car. That inspector said that those where the smoothest running wheels he ever saw. The inspector thought the wheels were bear, but they where obvioulsy silicon or a "wet" lubrication.

[Darin McGrew]

Regarding an effective why of sabotaging the spray on "wet" lubes. Our pack/council has rules saying something to the effect that the lube needs to be a dry, non permament lube. (vague though)

Our pack applies Graphite to all cars after inspection.

The questions that come to my mind are:

• Are there any legal ("dry, non-permanent") lubricants that are also incompatable with the graphite applied by the pack?
• Won't this also sabotage those who used graphite, but who spent the time "breaking in" their graphite?
• Why does anyone care what lubricant is used, as long as it doesn't make a mess?
• If "wet" lubricants give an "unfair" advantage, why not just make them available to everyone at the workshops?
• If people forget to apply any lubricant, why not just set up a lubricant table at the entrance of the room where the cars are registered?

Just my two cents...

[TDean]

Darin wrote;

Are there any legal ("dry, non-permanent") lubricants that are also incompatable with the graphite applied by the pack?

Won't this also sabotage those who used graphite, but who spent the time "breaking in" their graphite?

Why does anyone care what lubricant is used, as long as it doesn't make a mess?

If "wet" lubricants give an "unfair" advantage, why not just make them available to everyone at the workshops?

If people forget to apply any lubricant, why not just set up a lubricant table at the entrance of the room where the cars are registered?

I'm with you Darin -- having "the Pack" appointees applying graphite to ALL cars is a horrible idea -- boys that put in extra time to get their cars "just right" could easily have their work ruined by being manhandled out of alignment, inconsistent or improper application -- it makes me wince to think of it
As you suggest -- Our Pack has a table set up OUTSIDE the hall (no messy graphite allowed to be applied inside the building where we race) for anyone that needs it. Easy...

As for "wet" lubricant users -- thus far, I don't believe it has been an issue for our Pack -- though who knows if that'll change this year.
I'm running a couple of workshops this weekend -- maybe I can get an idea of how hot a topic wet lubricants are now. Perhaps a rule change to prohibit dripping or messy lubricants of any kind (excessively applied), at registration time, is in order...

[MathGuy]

Guys regarding Council rules, I think of the serenity prayer:

God,
Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

With that being said, I don't think I can change the council rules on dry lubes. But I can change our pack application of graphite to "all" cars. Yes having it available is the best option.

[Da Graphite Kid]

MathGuy,
Our Pack not only makes it available to be used outside the building, we also encourage its use. One of the steps we use in our inspection is that we ask if the boys have lubricated their cars. We also have a parent guard the graphite table as the boys (and parents) who have not used it before can make quite a mess! We have in the past made the cheap painters gloves available for this procedure.

As far as some people not following the rules (when they are clearly defined), there is not much that can be done about that. I'm sure that a lot of us know of things we could have our son's do to their pwd cars that would be 'legal' but that cannot be inspected for.

Da Graphite Kid

[Darin McGrew]

We also have a parent guard the graphite table as the boys (and parents) who have not used it before can make quite a mess!

We keep the graphite table outside too, but it's never been that big a problem. We have disposable pie tins that we use to contain the graphite. The routine is to place a wheel on the pie tin, sqeeze a bit of graphite into the bore, stick the axle in, give the wheel a spin test, and mount the axle on the car. Lubricating this way leaves very little mess.

There are better ways to do it, and everyone is free to use other lubricants (as long as they don't make a mess in the pit or on the track), but this sets a minimum level that works pretty well for those who show up on registration night with wheels in hand and no lubrication.

We have in the past made the cheap painters gloves available for this procedure.

Those disposable gloves are also great at the painting booths at your derby workshops!

I'm sure that a lot of us know of things we could have our son's do to their pwd cars that would be 'legal' but that cannot be inspected for.

We try to avoid prohibiting things that we can't inspect for. But there are limitations to the inspection process--mainly, that you can only inspect what is externally visible. So it would be possible to hide something in the car's interior that would be illegal: bushings in the wheel's bore that can't be seen from outside, axles mounted in alignment tubes embedded within the car's body, that sort of thing. But stuff like that is so far over the top for our derby, that I don't think we really need to worry about it.

[terryep]

A friend of mine came up with an interesting way to apply graphite to a wheel already mounted. He had his graphite in a pill bottle and used a little paint bush. It holds a little graphite and you can direct it into the axel hole nicely.

Terry

[Mike Parrish]

A friend of mine came up with an interesting way to apply graphite to a wheel already mounted. He had his graphite in a pill bottle and used a little paint bush. It holds a little graphite and you can direct it into the axel hole nicely.

My wife and I have a friend that is a nurse. I had her give me a hypodermic needle (which I used a cut-off wheel to remove the very sharp point), and glued it into the end of a soft bottle with a screw-off cap. The needle is just small enough in diameter to get between the hub & the body. Works very good for me.

[wardrocks]

They make 18 gauge needles that have a non-pointed tip, for drawing up medications with less chance of sticking yourself. You wouldn't have to cut off the end yourself. I don't know what gauge needle you were using, but the 18 is fairly big for a needle and might not fit as well between the hub and body. Worth a try though.

[Jthompson]

Stan,

One thought I had is to test by electrical conductivity. Graphite has one of the highest conductivities for a non-metal. I can look into this more if you are interested. You would need a sensor and computer at check in....lots of effort and time here!

I liked your idea on certification the best. If they cheat,,,well, that's not what the race is about! I do not know what to do in that case. Short of taking off the wheels and performaing mass spectroscopy, I am not sure what can be done.

[nosam116]

If you're sticking with the BSA rules in the box, do it not say "Only dry lubricant is permitted"?

[colopwdfan]

I've read over and over about this and I've come up with THE DEFINITIVE ANSWER: Urinalysis test, followed by hypnosis, Sodium Pentothal and a thorough background check.
John